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By Bm101
#1322356
No wonder you don't you bother using your sorby pro edge with all that wet n dry and white spirit lying about Jacob.
:D
That'd be mad eh?
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By Jacob
#1322364
Bm101 wrote:No wonder you don't you bother using your sorby pro edge with all that wet n dry and white spirit lying about Jacob.
:D
That'd be mad eh?
For me the wet n dry is for flattening chisel faces (just the first 15 mm or so) when they've been dubbed over a bit (i.e. bought old second hand) or plane soles occasionally.
Sorby Proedge no use for either but good for damaged bevels and turning gouges. TBH it doesn't do anything you couldn't do with a plywood disc + sand paper on the outboard end of lathe, but it's handy!
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By thetyreman
#1322428
I like to use scary sharp methods using 3m microlapping film for any serious blade flattening, I used to use wet n dry and found it too frustrating the edges round over and it doesn't stick down properly, it's a much cleaner and better solution and it lasts 3-6 months of use, very inexpensive longterm solution, all you need is some float glass and to buy a few grits, ideal system before you get diamond stones (which stay forever flat) #foreverflat
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By Bm101
#1322432
Jacob wrote:For me the wet n dry is for flattening chisel faces (just the first 15 mm or so) when they've been dubbed over a bit (i.e. bought old second hand) or plane soles occasionally.
Sorby Proedge no use for either...

I do the backs on the proedge Jacob. Take the bed off and lay it in carefully from the side by hand with a fine grit.
Rest it square on the side and 'lower'the business end onto the belt.
Wouldn't advocate it if someone is not confident and you need to apply pressure carefully but it works well if you are delicate.
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By ED65
#1322438
Thank you Trevanion. I know we know Jacob has form for this but good grief he can't 'alf read selectively when it suits him. I recommended someone persevere with freehanding not four posts previously!
By JohnCee
#1322778
Question for diamond stone users: are they OK to use with laminated Japanese chisels? I've heard it said that the softer backing steel can irreversibly clog the stones up if you use them to hone the bevel.
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By thetyreman
#1322863
JohnCee wrote:Question for diamond stone users: are they OK to use with laminated Japanese chisels? I've heard it said that the softer backing steel can irreversibly clog the stones up if you use them to hone the bevel.


I have used japanese laminated blades on my DMT stones and there's not been problems here, it's a load of rubbish from what I've experienced.
By JohnCee
#1322875
thetyreman wrote:
JohnCee wrote:Question for diamond stone users: are they OK to use with laminated Japanese chisels? I've heard it said that the softer backing steel can irreversibly clog the stones up if you use them to hone the bevel.


I have used japanese laminated blades on my DMT stones and there's not been problems here, it's a load of rubbish from what I've experienced.


Thanks, that's good to know.
By D_W
#1323058
thetyreman wrote:
JohnCee wrote:Question for diamond stone users: are they OK to use with laminated Japanese chisels? I've heard it said that the softer backing steel can irreversibly clog the stones up if you use them to hone the bevel.


I have used japanese laminated blades on my DMT stones and there's not been problems here, it's a load of rubbish from what I've experienced.


some of the ultra high japanese planes and chisels (which are, in my opinion, bumping up against a potentially troublesome line of hardness vs. toughness - toughness being the chip preventing property) will fracture if they are sharpened with crystolon stones or diamonds in medium and low grit.

I haven't run into anything yet that has an issue with small diamonds.

If you have something widely available for chisels and not bumping up against those limits, you may still find trouble with retention a time or two after grinding on coarse diamonds, but probably not with anything else. The real issue with diamonds and chisels is that most plates fail from diamonds being pulled out of the matrix over time. The big ones go first (thus the instant loss of tooth in cutting that you feel over the first dozen or so uses and then much slower decline), but the rest gradually get pulled. The harder steel is, the more likely the diamonds are to remain in their electroplate fixture. It's difficult to avoid introducing soft steel or iron to a diamond hone. I don't think it's a deal breaker, but generally don't find diamonds necessary with any japanese tools.

Long story short, most japanese tools won't have any issues with diamonds in ordinary use. But there are some higher end tools that don't tolerate some of the more aggressive coarse modern abrasives. If you're asking "what's high end?", it's generally tokyo (and now tokyo style) blacksmiths and offshoots from them who make ultra hard tools. Kiyotada, etc - things you're not likely to chance upon if you're buying from retailers of new tools these days.
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By thetyreman
#1323404
oops, I misread it and didn't see you'll be using chisels, I meant for japanese laminated plane blades, the 2mm thick ones designed to replace O1 steel blades, my diamond stones seem ok with them.
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By FatmanG
#1324704
D_W wrote:
Rich C wrote:
D_W wrote:The method that sellers uses is foolish - avoid it.

Howso?


At the risk of getting into a discussion where people will consider my principles too faffy and precise (they are not), the sellers method is fine for sloppy sharpening, but there are two problems with it:
1) it is not careful enough with edge and bevel geometry and will make things like nailing camber (if you're going to finish off of the plane more difficult). The issue with the geometry isn't at the tip, but the rounded bevel in wedging tools like chisels is problematic, it will have you doing extra work unless you're very careful about leaving it long and thin (the actual rounding at the very edge is fine, and perhaps desirable from the perspective of picking where your edge will fail).
2) it has you doing a whole bunch of work to metal that really has no part in the performance of the tool (namely, you end up polishing a whole bunch of the bevel that doesn't need it)

It's both quicker and far more precise to remove a flat or hollow bevel (I'm more of a traditionalist, but I cannot argue just how good a CBN wheel is - even the wheels that are $50 from china are fabulous - the grinder used does not need to be large or expensive), and use fewer stones, and for the ultimate work, slower stones precisely where you want to use them.

Every person I've ever seen who does fine work with a lot of hand tools is much more precise about their sharpening, and economical with effort. Not more deliberate (not slower), but more precise.

I don't wish to get in a fanboy battle - I am a fanatical sharpener of things sort of as a hobby, it goes well beyond tools. Fanatical not only in sharpness, but quickness of it, too. But, I also work almost entirely by hand, and doing as well as possible with sharpening (within the constraint that it still needs to be quick) helps hand work greatly, because you will be sharpening chisels, planes, strange little irons, little knives, all kinds of things. The methods that actually work the best for actual work generally coincide with making the least effort, but controlling edge and bevel geometry by keeping the bevel out of the way but still giving you an allowance to be less than perfect at the very edge (finer, slower stones for that work- slightly rounding the very last fraction of the edge both for strength and to confirm that you have, in fact, removed all of the wear that was present before sharpening).


I think the difference between you and Paul Sellers is by your own admission is you're a fanatical sharpener where he is a fanatical craftsman/woodworker. His work is out there for all to see. Paul is teaching inexperienced woodworker's the basics but even so he still is able to give out correct advice always. As a student gains experience he is able to hone his skill in every aspect he is taught. I'm sick and tired of seeing Paul being dismissed like some you tube Silly person who talks rubbish. Nobody is perfect but I feel whether you disagree with the minutiae or not he deserves respect. Imho
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By ED65
#1324716
Yes it's easy to take pot shots at people in the public eye, please take it on faith that's not what I'm doing here.

But you see this is part of the problem:
FatmanG wrote:Paul is teaching inexperienced woodworker's the basics but even so he still is able to give out correct advice always.

Unfortunately he doesn't.

FatmanG wrote:...but I feel whether you disagree with the minutiae or not he deserves respect.

This is not just a matter of minutia. Sharpening is a cornerstone aspect of the craft he is striving to help people with (largely successfully I might add) and good work can fail or succeed on the strength of it.

Sellers's method can certainly work – it obviously works for him and it has undeniably helped a great many people get much better edges, including yours truly – but commenters are free to point out that there are issues with it for the newbie and learner, and that there are superior techniques (better results faster) that one can aspire to.
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By sammy.se
#1324725
As a total newbie sharpener, I started with the Paul sellers sandpaper method, and it was ok. But, based on advice on this forum, I tried using diamond stones, that is much easier and faster, and costs the same (maybe cheaper in the long term).

So as a beginner, diamond stones all the way. Paul sellers also uses diamond stones, to be fair. But I'm glad he teaches various methods.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
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By FatmanG
#1324747
FatmanG wrote:The method that sellers uses is foolish - avoid it.

I'm staggered to read that comment. :shock:

Sellers specifically tells people that they need to do the full progression, every time. This does have some specific disadvantages; it needlessly wastes steel for one, and it increases the risk of a less-experienced user altering the edge profile unintentionally. But on the other hand it does ensure anyone following his practices to the letter will never fail to remove the wear bevel even if they have the bad habit of leaving their honing interval too long.

So plus and minus. But for the typical user I can promise you if you do some comparative tests you'll find you don't need to touch the bevel to a coarser plate in the normal course of your work.

Even minor damage doesn't require it. I nicked/dented a chisel edge the other day by repeatedly running it into a stub of nail I didn't know was there and even with this I didn't need to reach for my coarsest plate. In fact I repaired the edge on my 1,000. Because diamonds are awesome 8) [/b]

He shows how to sharpen/restore tools he buys cheap usually off ebay. He shows how to get cheap aldi chisels ready from out of the packet. He is teaching inexperienced users the basics of how to get a tool sharp to use. You have to recognize the target audience if he responded like some have on here to the OP question nobody would ever pick up a tool. Why people try and pull others down to try and make themselves look superior is like the man who drives a rolls to mask the size of his nobbly bit or worse just a jealous wannabe IMHO. Disagree with some one by all means but calling him a fool isn't on. I wonder how those apprentice with autism he's training feel being mentored by a fool. Where's the respect in this world gone?
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By FatmanG
#1324749
ED65 wrote:Yes it's easy to take pot shots at people in the public eye, please take it on faith that's not what I'm doing here.

But you see this is part of the problem:
FatmanG wrote:Paul is teaching inexperienced woodworker's the basics but even so he still is able to give out correct advice always.

Unfortunately he doesn't.

FatmanG wrote:...but I feel whether you disagree with the minutiae or not he deserves respect.

This is not just a matter of minutia. Sharpening is a cornerstone aspect of the craft he is striving to help people with (largely successfully I might add) and good work can fail or succeed on the strength of it.

Sellers's method can certainly work – it obviously works for him and it has undeniably helped a great many people get much better edges, including yours truly – but commenters are free to point out that there are issues with it for the newbie and learner, and that there are superior techniques (better results faster) that one can aspire to.

I accept your not taking potshots I respect you for saying so. I have studied woodworking at length unable to get out of bed for years and Paul's methods are the very best out there IMO I would be happy to view any you may think that are superior please post me a link. If its a case of I say so believe me guv then that's just a case of hot air for me my body may of got battered but my eyesight works. I'm now putting into practice what I've studied and its working verbatim