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By Rich C
#1322220
Jacob wrote:It doesn't tear if you do it right. White spirit, not water. Water causes rust.

Sure if you're Jacob who has the way of the sharpener. But for a new woodworker, they are far from foolproof.

Jacob wrote:Yes to messy. Copious supply of oily rags required. I use wet n dry just for remedial work , not routine sharpening, and a pack lasts for years. Typically about 25p a sheet. Two sheets 80 grit and you can flatten a no.7 sole quickly and easily - if you've got a big enough impermeable flat surface to put them on
For sharpening oilstones are cheapest option by far - they last for life.

The cleaner was in referenece to oilstones, but also applies to wet and dry I suppose.

Cost of an oilstone is what, £30? Plus oil.

Cost of a diamond plate, £3. You can buy ten of them before the oilstone has even broken even, and there's no ongoing cost for oil either. I wouldn't say oilstones are by far the cheaper. Even if the plates only last a year, you probably spend that on oil in a year for the oilstone.
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By Jacob
#1322226
Rich C wrote:
Jacob wrote:It doesn't tear if you do it right. White spirit, not water. Water causes rust.

Sure if you're Jacob who has the way of the sharpener. But for a new woodworker, they are far from foolproof.
Nonsense. You just need to have a go - it's not radical or difficult. The paper needs to be thin so that it soaks up white spirit and stays flat, and the surface flooded before you put it down. It stays down beautifully flat, stuck by surface tension. Has to be flat sheet to start with - no bends or rucks, and the flat impermeable surface has to be good. I use planer bed, but thick glass would do it. Perhaps formica on ply? I haven't tried it.
Jacob wrote:...
Cost of an oilstone is what, £30? Plus oil.

Cost of a diamond plate, £3. You can buy ten of them before the oilstone has even broken even, and there's no ongoing cost for oil either. I wouldn't say oilstones are by far the cheaper. Even if the plates only last a year, you probably spend that on oil in a year for the oilstone.
Oil expense is next to nothing. I use 3in1 half n half with white spirit. It is worth using on diamond plates too - they cut faster, the swarf wipes off more easily and they probably will last longer.
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By nabs
#1322233
Jacob you seem to have succumbed to some weird modern fetish about white spirts and wet and dry sandpaper - this is most out of character! I was going to give the old w+d another go (like everyone else I find it rips apart with in minutes when I try it) but now I see that the secret to your success is the addition of a planer bed. I haven't got one of those, sadly - am I destined to never learn the error of my ways*?

*semi serious comment - The best sandpaper method I have found is those big long rolls of sandpaper pinned down with clamps (actually pritt stick is surprisingly effective at holding long lengths of paper down too).
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By thetyreman
#1322240
somebody needs to do a scientific comparison of the £3 diamond plate vs an atoma made in japan.
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By Jacob
#1322252
nabs wrote:Jacob you seem to have succumbed to some weird modern fetish about white spirts and wet and dry sandpaper - this is most out of character! I was going to give the old w+d another go (like everyone else I find it rips apart with in minutes when I try it) but now I see that the secret to your success is the addition of a planer bed. I haven't got one of those, sadly - am I destined to never learn the error of my ways*?

*semi serious comment - The best sandpaper method I have found is those big long rolls of sandpaper pinned down with clamps (actually pritt stick is surprisingly effective at holding long lengths of paper down too).
Any flat impermeable surface will do.
There's no mystery about wet n dry and flattening - I first heard about it about 55 years ago - having to flatten the cylinder-head face of a BSA Bantam (as far as I recall!)
The weirdest modern fetish is in the belittling of tried and tested old techniques in favour of modern alternatives which are expensive and often inferior.
n.b. "sticking" the stuff down is simply not as flat as "wetting" it down
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By nabs
#1322256
Jacob wrote:n.b. "sticking" the stuff down is simply not as flat as "wetting" it down

true - I meant using pritt stick it in addition to the clamps - the clamps hold it taught and the pritt stick to help preventing it from "riding up" around the blade/sole etc

Re your BSA, coincidentally I am restoring an old Honda c90 and have just done the top end - I do plan to hone the cylinder head surface and will be using a (wet) bit of wet and dry sandpaper!
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By Jacob
#1322265
nabs wrote:
Jacob wrote:n.b. "sticking" the stuff down is simply not as flat as "wetting" it down

true - I meant using pritt stick it in addition to the clamps - the clamps hold it taught and the pritt stick to help preventing it from "riding up" around the blade/sole etc

Re your BSA, coincidentally I am restoring an old Honda c90 and have just done the top end - I do plan to hone the cylinder head surface and will be using a (wet) bit of wet and dry sandpaper!
There you go then! Thing is to apply the cylinder head to the wet paper on a flat impermeable surface, not the other way round. Thin paper-backed wet n dry is designed for the job.
It's not what RichC calls "the way of the sharpener" :lol: it's just a simple obvious technique which a 5 year old could manage!
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By ED65
#1322291
sammy.se wrote:Just need to sort myself out a cheap stropping solution and autosol. Not got round to that yet.

Not my favourite but you can load the factory surface of MDF with stropping compound and just use that. The planed surface of a piece of hardwood can be used too, so for the fastest strop going just reach into the scrap bin :D

I'm fond on cloth-faced strops myself (mine use a strip of denim stuck down with PVA) but hard strops can work very well and I have one of those too, loaded with diamond paste which was also bought inexpensively from AliExpress.

sammy.se wrote:Regarding ease, I will probably buy a honing guide at some point, free hand works, but I like knowing I have a consistent angle.

I would persevere with freehanding for a couple of reasons, one of which is the actual angle doesn't matter much!

If you want or need a guide though remember way back on page 4 of this thread I linked to a honing guide that can be built from scraps. That basic type is very very capable and well worth the few minutes it would take to make.
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By AndyT
#1322297
ED65 wrote:Not my favourite but you can load the factory surface of MDF with stropping compound and just use that.


I find that so effective I've not tried anything else (apart from the leather strop I made, before I read about using MDF and Autosol on here.) Thanks to Pete Maddex and anyone else spreading the word!

(You only need the tiniest smear of polish. A single tube should last for years.)
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By ED65
#1322302
Rich C wrote:Cost of an oilstone is what, £30? Plus oil.

Cost of a diamond plate, £3. You can buy ten of them before the oilstone has even broken even, and there's no ongoing cost for oil either. I wouldn't say oilstones are by far the cheaper. Even if the plates only last a year, you probably spend that on oil in a year for the oilstone.

You have a point. If someone laid in 10 cheap plates right now and each one lasted only five years even the youngest member here would likely never need to buy again. Actually there's every reason to suppose that diamond plates can last as much as 10 years, so a stock of five would see most people out.

To be fair to Jacob's point though, the type of oilstone he recommends most often has a vitrified bond like a Norton and those are famous for how long they last. It would be virtually impossible for a user to wear one out in their lifetime, so for most they genuinely are a multi-generational purchase.


FatmanG wrote:The method that sellers uses is foolish - avoid it. [/b]

I'm staggered to read that comment. :shock:

Sellers specifically tells people that they need to do the full progression, every time. This does have some specific disadvantages; it needlessly wastes steel for one, and it increases the risk of a less-experienced user altering the edge profile unintentionally. But on the other hand it does ensure anyone following his practices to the letter will never fail to remove the wear bevel even if they have the bad habit of leaving their honing interval too long.

So plus and minus. But for the typical user I can promise you if you do some comparative tests you'll find you don't need to touch the bevel to a coarser plate in the normal course of your work.

Even minor damage doesn't require it. I nicked/dented a chisel edge the other day by repeatedly running it into a stub of nail I didn't know was there and even with this I didn't need to reach for my coarsest plate. In fact I repaired the edge on my 1,000. Because diamonds are awesome 8)


thetyreman wrote:somebody needs to do a scientific comparison of the £3 diamond plate vs an atoma made in japan.

Nah. Just buy a £3 plate and use it. See if you think it doesn't, ah, cut it; your opinion on the matter is all that really counts.

What if some well-respected bod did such a comparison and the cheapie was resoundingly trounced, would this actually devalue your hands-on experience with yours? When you can raise a burr in 10 strokes or less, be putting your tool back to use in under three minutes, would you think you have a legitimate need of better?
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By ED65
#1322304
AndyT wrote:(You only need the tiniest smear of polish. A single tube should last for years.)

Yup! I fully load my strop surface for OCD reasons and still I've used an unnoticeable amount of polish in the last five years.

I'd say even a very heavy user would get a decade from a tube of polish of the usual size. If you load the strop with a block of honing compound like the typical green stuff I think one of those could last a lifetime.
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By Jacob
#1322339
ED65 wrote:....
Sellers specifically tells people that they need to do the full progression, every time.
Not quite sure what you mean - what is "the full progression"? I think what I do is the same - hone at 30º, dip as you go. Sort of combined "primary" and "secondary" bevel ( to use popular modern sharpeners' expressions)
This does have some specific disadvantages; it needlessly wastes steel for one, and it increases the risk of a less-experienced user altering the edge profile unintentionally.
It does neither. As usual with modern sharpeners, you are over-thinking a very simple procedure.
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By Trevanion
#1322349
Jacob wrote:
ED65 wrote:....
Sellers specifically tells people that they need to do the full progression, every time.
Not quite sure what you mean - what is "the full progression"? I think what I do is the same - hone at 30º, dip as you go. Sort of combined "primary" and "secondary" bevel ( to use popular modern sharpeners' expressions)


I see exactly what ED65 means, he's saying that when Paul goes to sharpen a chisel, he always starts at the coarsest grit and works his way up, every time. Whilst realistically with most chisels that have worn and become dull you can give them a quick once over on the fine stone (Or medium if it's really dulled) and be straight back at it rather than start at square one every time and waste steel getting it back to where it was before you even begun sharpening it.

Imagine if you wanted to sharpen up your chisel and you started on the coarse wet 'n dry every time rather than just giving it a quick once-over on the oilstone. Basically making it worse before it gets better every time.

Jacob wrote:It does neither. As usual with modern sharpeners, you are over-thinking a very simple procedure.


I think this is rather a snarky comment towards someone who also freehand sharpens just like yourself, just using diamond plates rather than oil stones.

It would help if you actually read posts sometimes...
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By Jacob
#1322352
Trevanion wrote:
Jacob wrote:
ED65 wrote:....
Sellers specifically tells people that they need to do the full progression, every time.
Not quite sure what you mean - what is "the full progression"? I think what I do is the same - hone at 30º, dip as you go. Sort of combined "primary" and "secondary" bevel ( to use popular modern sharpeners' expressions)


I see exactly what ED65 means, he's saying that when Paul goes to sharpen a chisel, he always starts at the coarsest grit and works his way up, every time. Whilst realistically with most chisels that have worn and become dull you can give them a quick once over on the fine stone (Or medium if it's really dulled) and be straight back at it rather than start at square one every time and waste steel getting it back to where it was before you even begun sharpening it.

Imagine if you wanted to sharpen up your chisel and you started on the coarse wet 'n dry every time rather than just giving it a quick once-over on the oilstone. Basically making it worse before it gets better every time.

Jacob wrote:It does neither. As usual with modern sharpeners, you are over-thinking a very simple procedure.


I think this is rather a snarky comment towards someone who also freehand sharpens just like yourself, just using diamond plates rather than oil stones.

It would help if you actually read posts sometimes...
OK read it. Yes you are right, and I do it the other way - start with finest grit and only move on to coarser if the burr doesn't come up pronto.
Just checked the Sellers vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN4yr7vp4I4 it's OK but I'd start with the finest plate and only do the other ops if really necessary.
Interestingly - every new chisel I've ever bought has that slight hollow face, which makes them very easy to sharpen. Never so easy as the first time in fact. Only exception was a cheapo Faithful "carving" set, which were dog rough but usable in the end.