Charnwood W619 Or Axminster Craft AC216TS Table Saw

[Seb]

Hi everyone

I am looking to upgrade to a cast iron table saw for my home workshop. I've found the above 8" versions by Charnwood & Axminster, and wondered if you had any advice as to which may be the better choice, or possibly any alternative suggestions. Apologies as I am unable to post the links.

I saw both at the North Of England Woodworking show, and was pretty impressed by the Axminster. It was unbelievably quiet. I didn't get as hands on with the Charnwood as it was really busy at their stand.

The Axminster would probably cost around £100 more with the stand and sliding carriage, and the Charnwood's cutting width capacity is over double!

Is there a brand, and particular saw that i'm missing, that may offer me a far better option?

Thanks in advance for your replies

 

[stuartpaul]

Seb,

I have a personal bias towards Axminster because of (generally) reasonable quality (for the price) and very good back up service and away from Charnwood because of poorer quality and even poorer back up. A dished saw table (nearly 2 mm) that was apparently within tolerance! There are also some people with a less than positive view of Axminster so it's not all roses!

You need to have a good play with both because I suspect like many it's not a purchase you can afford to make twice! Think about what you will mainly be doing, will that difference in cutting width really make a difference? Unfortunately it's not until you've lived with something for a while that you can really decide whether it's a good long term purchase or just something you live with because you can't afford to change.

I haven't had a chance to play with the 216 yet as they don't have stock until the new year but the specs look reasonable (it's on my list if I decide to replace my old saw). They are also still selling the 250 which is a bit cheaper.

 

[Seb]

Thanks for your reply Stuart

I know what you mean re Axminster's service. They've been spot on with everything I've had so far.

I'll mainly be making tables in the new year, and so I just worry about the smaller width tables. The Charnwood seems to be a lot of kit for the money.

There really doesn't seem to be many other options under £1,000. iTech machines keep getting a mention lately I've noticed.

What saw do you currently have?

 

[Peterm1000]

I have had 3 Charnwood machines in my time and had to go for spares on each of them. I have never had a problem and spares have always been well priced and quick to arrive - even when I blew up the motor on my previous saw. I have the W650 which I bought second hand without the sliding table (for £150 - nice!). I added the whole sliding table setup including brackets for another £150 and Charnwood sent it all to me within 24 hours. That was an upgrade on the W616 which itself was just fine - if hard to get the table flat.

What I like about Charnwood is that they have a more limited range than Axminster but that range doesn't chop and change all the time. The machines are a bit agricultural but they work very well. I am delighted with the W650 and suspect you would be with the W619 too.

 

[Ttrees]

Plenty of options for under a grand....
If you could mention why you are specifically looking at either of the two saws, it would make it easier to give you some other options,
Like....
Is space a premium in the workshop?
Do you only have 13a sockets to power the saw?
Is it only you working in the workshop?
Would you be willing/ have the time to make or fix anything like a riving knife etc?

Maybe, you want to be able to put it in a van or something often?

Tom

 

[Seb]

Peter - Thanks for your reply. Your experience with Charnwood sounds promising. What exactly do you mean by their machines being a bit agricultural?

Tom - Cheers. My initial spec was simply a solid cast iron table, solid fence, and under £700 ish ideally. I can't seem to find much without going up into the £1000 range. My workshop is 150sq, but I use the space well. Standard sockets. Just me on my own running the business. Always willing to make time to put things right, but ideally want to buy new on this occasion and have it almost perfect out of the box. My Kity planer thicknesser was an eBay buy and has been great, but not without it's issues, costing me a few days of down time throughout the year (appreciate this is the nature of such machinery).

Thanks again

 

[Ttrees]

Hello again
Since you have only 13a sockets, work by yourself and want a sturdy machine you sound like you might make use of VFD's...
as the most powerful single phase machine you will be able to run off a 13a plug will be 2HP max.
I suggest you have a look at some three phase saws on eBay
I seen a Startrite 275 for 400 quid and delivery available for instance.
Ideally you might want the DS275 as it has the sliding table.
I have one of these three phase saws, it has a 3hp motor and I run it from a 13a plug, and I have quite a weak supply in the shed...


There are a few more machines listed buy it now, like some Wadkins and Multico's
I don't think the Multico's have a tilting arbor though, so that's not my cup of tea...
Some Wadkins may take a wee bit more effort to hook up, compared to the Startrite with its dual voltage motor

You can run these 3 phase saws needing no electrical experience, using a sub 100 quid inverter on a 13a plug
Easy to hook up to a VFD/inverter, as it has only 4 wires from motor to VFD/inverter (3 hots and an earth)
and your 3 wires from the supply (live, neutral and earth)
Both earths go together into earth terminal, and the rest of the input and output wires goes into the other input and output terminals
It does not matter what orientation these go into, it won't explode or anything.

The important rules with VFD's are...
1 Have no plug that can be disconnected between motor and VFD.

2 Make sure you have entered the correct parameters (values) for your motor like RPM, because these VFD's can run a motor at eight times the speed of what is normal.

3 Make sure to wait for the device to power down before going at the main terminals ...
these drives have large capacitors which can hold quite a charge for some time.

Plenty of Startrites running off VFD's here, with plenty of threads on the subject.
If you find a good three phase machine locally, look for 240v on the motor nameplate or a triangle symbol (low voltage Delta configuration)
That means it can be easily hooked up to a VFD and can run off domestic socket.
Can give you loads of links if you are interested
Good Luck
Tom

 

[Peterm1000]

Peter - Thanks for your reply. Your experience with Charnwood sounds promising. What exactly do you mean by their machines being a bit agricultural?

By agricultural I just mean some of the metal work is a bit unfinished in places - lots of folded steel (heavyweight though), slightly rough corners and held together with bolts and nuts where others use captive fittings. Things like the handles aren't the greatest quality. Maybe they aren't the prettiest machines but I like the fact that if a bit falls off, you can use a standard bolt to refit it and don't need some non-standard part for £20. It was really interesting buying the sliding table for the W650 as it's clearly identical to the one Axminster use. When you look at the Charnwood / Warco / Axminster sites it's clear that a lot of the manufacturers are manufacturing basically the same machine and the only difference is the paintwork and a few minor details.

Charnwood and Warco both seem to be able to supply basically the same as Axminster but better specced and for 20% less.

 

[Seb]

Peter - Thanks for your reply. Your experience with Charnwood sounds promising. What exactly do you mean by their machines being a bit agricultural?

By agricultural I just mean some of the metal work is a bit unfinished in places - lots of folded steel (heavyweight though), slightly rough corners and held together with bolts and nuts where others use captive fittings. Things like the handles aren't the greatest quality. Maybe they aren't the prettiest machines but I like the fact that if a bit falls off, you can use a standard bolt to refit it and don't need some non-standard part for £20. It was really interesting buying the sliding table for the W650 as it's clearly identical to the one Axminster use. When you look at the Charnwood / Warco / Axminster sites it's clear that a lot of the manufacturers are manufacturing basically the same machine and the only difference is the paintwork and a few minor details.

Charnwood and Warco both seem to be able to supply basically the same as Axminster but better specced and for 20% less.

Thanks Peter. That makes sense. I don't mind a little rough finishing here and there if the machine does it's job.

Like you say, the spec and price of the Charnwood stuff compared to the equivalent Axminster is quite a big difference. It's definitely one I'm going to seriously think about over the next week or so. I've had a couple of separate conversations in the last few days, and the idea of a plunge saw has been thrown into the mix. I'd never entertained them before but given the relatively low cost for the top of the range models, and that it would be extremely useful for ripping my hardwoods down, I'm seriously thinking about it. Part of me wonders if I'd regret not just going all out on the table saw a month into initially having the plunge though...

 

[stuartpaul]

Seb,

You can end up with analysis paralysis if you're not careful! I sold my table saw pending a downsize a few months ago and since then trying to decide if I can manage without one (I have a bandsaw and a tracksaw) but there are still times I find myself wanting to do a quick zap on a tablesaw to help 'regularise' dimensions of particular items.

I need to see a decent demonstration of an MFT to see if that might fit the bill.

You're right and there isn't much between many of the various saws and it comes down to personal taste and feelings. Because I live so close to Axminster I do end up being pulled that way although Yandles are as close but their customer service is in a much lower league (IMHO of course!). I still can't bring myself to buy Charnwood again!

Merry Christmas

Stuart

 

[Peterm1000]

Axminster has a whole range of stores and sell a vast range. They don't compare with Charnwood or Warco who are much smaller outfits and I'm not sure it's fair to compare. They compete in the same way that an independent garage does with a main dealer. Warco and Charnwood are a bit rougher around the edges customer service-wise, but personally I quite like dealing with normal human beings that have not been told to behave a certain way. If you are at the cheaper end of the market, then I have the sense on a non-core Axminster machine it just goes in the skip when it breaks out of warranty. Charnwood hold a surprisingly large range of parts. That said, if Axminster were just around the corner I am sure I would go there.

 

[Seb]

Seb,

You can end up with analysis paralysis if you're not careful! I sold my table saw pending a downsize a few months ago and since then trying to decide if I can manage without one (I have a bandsaw and a tracksaw) but there are still times I find myself wanting to do a quick zap on a tablesaw to help 'regularise' dimensions of particular items.

I need to see a decent demonstration of an MFT to see if that might fit the bill.

You're right and there isn't much between many of the various saws and it comes down to personal taste and feelings. Because I live so close to Axminster I do end up being pulled that way although Yandles are as close but their customer service is in a much lower league (IMHO of course!). I still can't bring myself to buy Charnwood again!

Merry Christmas

Stuart

Sorry for the late reply Stuart. I've had a busy one over the Christmas period. I hope you had a good one. I'm still here a couple of weeks later undecided. Presumably the analysis paralysis has already taken hold!

I took a trip to Axminster to see if they had the new craft machine in, but unfortunately it had not arrived yet. The manager said he will let me know once it's in, but I was a little disappointing at the lack of any knowledge about the new Craft stuff. I asked if the existing hobby range accessories will be straight fits on the new Craft range, as I was trying to get at the fact that I was essentially matching them up with the Charnwood. They had no idea, and a call to head office didn't help either. He pointed to the current 200 and 250 saws, and said look and feel should be very similar bar some improvements. That worried me, as the moment I raised and lowered the blade on both machines, the riving knife became unaligned in any position other than at full depth of cut.

The table with the base and sliding carriage will set me back £720, without the extension table. For a 216mm saw, that's getting up there in price, and would make me think of looking at spending that bit more to get the next step up.

I'm therefore more confused now than ever, as I have discovered a potential issue with the Charnwood too despite the cost being really good. I'll detail that in my reply to Peter below, as I can't see that multi quoting is an option on the forum...

 

[Seb]

Axminster has a whole range of stores and sell a vast range. They don't compare with Charnwood or Warco who are much smaller outfits and I'm not sure it's fair to compare. They compete in the same way that an independent garage does with a main dealer. Warco and Charnwood are a bit rougher around the edges customer service-wise, but personally I quite like dealing with normal human beings that have not been told to behave a certain way. If you are at the cheaper end of the market, then I have the sense on a non-core Axminster machine it just goes in the skip when it breaks out of warranty. Charnwood hold a surprisingly large range of parts. That said, if Axminster were just around the corner I am sure I would go there.

You're right Peter. Very different approach from each company.

I'm still undecided as mentioned in my reply to Stuart above. I noticed the following comment on a review on the Screwfix website regarding the Scheppach TS82, that looks to be the exact same machine as the Charnwood W619:-

"All works fine and dandy.
BUT ! the saw blade is 200mm X 2.8 kerf and the riving knife is 2.3mm.
Screwfix do not sell 200mm blades, companies who do, do not sell 2.8mm kerf only 2.4mm or a few do 2.6mm.
So basically you can not buy saw blades for this machine it is all odd sizes.
If you buy a 2.4mm kerf blade you will have to remove the riving knife because the timber will hit against the riving knife.
So your options are to remove the riving knife and risk kick back and lose dust extraction from the top of the riving knife. Or grind down the fitted riving knife to less than 2.3mm or make a new riving knife out of 2mm steel.
I've contacted Scheppach and they never reply!
It's a dodo of a saw bench because of the above.... "

I also saw a similar comment made on a different site with regards to 200mm blades, and I really want this to be a machine I can consistently put the best blades in. This has me a little worried, but I'm not sure if unnecessarily, and I'm possibly missing something. I'd have thought this would be cropping up more as an issue across the forums, unless people are removing the riving knife, grinding it down, or 200mm blades aren't actually that hard to find that fit W619 (maybe I need to look harder).

 

[Seb]

Hello again
Since you have only 13a sockets, work by yourself and want a sturdy machine you sound like you might make use of VFD's...
as the most powerful single phase machine you will be able to run off a 13a plug will be 2HP max.
I suggest you have a look at some three phase saws on eBay
I seen a Startrite 275 for 400 quid and delivery available for instance.
Ideally you might want the DS275 as it has the sliding table.
I have one of these three phase saws, it has a 3hp motor and I run it from a 13a plug, and I have quite a weak supply in the shed...


There are a few more machines listed buy it now, like some Wadkins and Multico's
I don't think the Multico's have a tilting arbor though, so that's not my cup of tea...
Some Wadkins may take a wee bit more effort to hook up, compared to the Startrite with its dual voltage motor

You can run these 3 phase saws needing no electrical experience, using a sub 100 quid inverter on a 13a plug
Easy to hook up to a VFD/inverter, as it has only 4 wires from motor to VFD/inverter (3 hots and an earth)
and your 3 wires from the supply (live, neutral and earth)
Both earths go together into earth terminal, and the rest of the input and output wires goes into the other input and output terminals
It does not matter what orientation these go into, it won't explode or anything.

The important rules with VFD's are...
1 Have no plug that can be disconnected between motor and VFD.

2 Make sure you have entered the correct parameters (values) for your motor like RPM, because these VFD's can run a motor at eight times the speed of what is normal.

3 Make sure to wait for the device to power down before going at the main terminals ...
these drives have large capacitors which can hold quite a charge for some time.

Plenty of Startrites running off VFD's here, with plenty of threads on the subject.
If you find a good three phase machine locally, look for 240v on the motor nameplate or a triangle symbol (low voltage Delta configuration)
That means it can be easily hooked up to a VFD and can run off domestic socket.
Can give you loads of links if you are interested
Good Luck
Tom

Thanks a lot for the advice Tom.

I'm not really looking to get a three phase at this point I'm afraid. I appreciate the value for money with some of the kit I could pick up on eBay, but I've got to be extremely careful with my setup at home. I'm sure if done right they are great, but I've already been struggling to establish a home Insurer who will be happy covering the property with me doing woodwork from home! I couldn't even get tools cover because my garage has an up and over door...apparently it's a security issue :?

 

[Bodgers]

I asked if the existing hobby range accessories will be straight fits on the new Craft range, as I was trying to get at the fact that I was essentially matching them up with the Charnwood. They had no idea, and a call to head office didn't help either. He pointed to the current 200 and 250 saws, and said look and feel should be very similar bar some improvements. That worried me, as the moment I raised and lowered the blade on both machines, the riving knife became unaligned in any position other than at full depth of cut.

The new Axy Craft saw is a new ground up design, it is different from the old Kity clone design of the old TS200 and Charnwood machines. The slots on the table are now a standard width (like they should have been to begin with), the blade and motor is now mounted like a 'proper' table saw so the tilt doesn't affect the distance from the blade to the top, making zero clearance inserts easier to make. Fence also is improved.

Not sure what you mean by 'accessories' but I wouldn't expect for say the table extension or fences to be compatible with the old Hobby design.

I don't think going for the Charwood stuff is going to give you a better design in terms of quality, especially when you compare prices. At the sub £600 level Axy are fairly hard to beat on these saws.

 

[Seb]

I asked if the existing hobby range accessories will be straight fits on the new Craft range, as I was trying to get at the fact that I was essentially matching them up with the Charnwood. They had no idea, and a call to head office didn't help either. He pointed to the current 200 and 250 saws, and said look and feel should be very similar bar some improvements. That worried me, as the moment I raised and lowered the blade on both machines, the riving knife became unaligned in any position other than at full depth of cut.

The new Axy Craft saw is a new ground up design, it is different from the old Kity clone design of the old TS200 and Charnwood machines. The slots on the table are now a standard width (like they should have been to begin with), the blade and motor is now mounted like a 'proper' table saw so the tilt doesn't affect the distance from the blade to the top, making zero clearance inserts easier to make. Fence also is improved.

Not sure what you mean by 'accessories' but I wouldn't expect for say the table extension or fences to be compatible with the old Hobby design.

I don't think going for the Charwood stuff is going to give you a better design in terms of quality, especially when you compare prices. At the sub £600 level Axy are fairly hard to beat on these saws.

Thanks for the reply Bodgers!

Sorry, I should have been clearer, by accessories I was referring to adding on the sliding carriage, full base and extension table. I noticed that there was no reference to an extension for the saw on the site. When I queried it, the manager said it did seem odd but couldn't get an answer from head office. They weren't sure either, so I queried whether it's maybe because the hobby machines use a lot of the same parts and it will transfer over.

I appreciate the build of these machines does seem pretty good, it certainly did at the Harrogate show. The issue is the fact you've literally got to add everything, mitre fence, carriage, base, extension (If available), and that will take the price up to £800, which seems expensive for a 216mm saw. £600 gets you everything with the charnwood, but the issues I've raised above concerns me.

 

[Bodgers]

I asked if the existing hobby range accessories will be straight fits on the new Craft range, as I was trying to get at the fact that I was essentially matching them up with the Charnwood. They had no idea, and a call to head office didn't help either. He pointed to the current 200 and 250 saws, and said look and feel should be very similar bar some improvements. That worried me, as the moment I raised and lowered the blade on both machines, the riving knife became unaligned in any position other than at full depth of cut.

The new Axy Craft saw is a new ground up design, it is different from the old Kity clone design of the old TS200 and Charnwood machines. The slots on the table are now a standard width (like they should have been to begin with), the blade and motor is now mounted like a 'proper' table saw so the tilt doesn't affect the distance from the blade to the top, making zero clearance inserts easier to make. Fence also is improved.

Not sure what you mean by 'accessories' but I wouldn't expect for say the table extension or fences to be compatible with the old Hobby design.

I don't think going for the Charwood stuff is going to give you a better design in terms of quality, especially when you compare prices. At the sub £600 level Axy are fairly hard to beat on these saws.

Thanks for the reply Bodgers!

Sorry, I should have been clearer, by accessories I was referring to adding on the sliding carriage, full base and extension table. I noticed that there was no reference to an extension for the saw on the site. When I queried it, the manager said it did seem odd but couldn't get an answer from head office. They weren't sure either, so I queried whether it's maybe because the hobby machines use a lot of the same parts and it will transfer over.

I appreciate the build of these machines does seem pretty good, it certainly did at the Harrogate show. The issue is the fact you've literally got to add everything, mitre fence, carriage, base, extension (If available), and that will take the price up to £800, which seems expensive for a 216mm saw. £600 gets you everything with the charnwood, but the issues I've raised above concerns me.

£600 for everything on the Charnwood, but comparing apples to apples you have to compare the TS200mk2 which is still for sale (for now). If you stick the slider and the extension on that, you are up to around £500 and the Axy has a better fence, not the screw clamp one like the Charnwood.

The new Craft saw has quite an improved slider that is a step up over the old one, so they are wanting to get the money out of that.

Without a serious amout of modification I don't think the TS200 slider would work with the new Craft saw.

If you are wanting to keep the budget down, I would either buy the basic Craft saw without a stand and slider (the slider is pretty limited on these small machines anyway - it isn't as if you are going to be able to cut full sheets of plywood with it). Make your own mobile base - it will be better than the pressed steel static one.

Either that or buy the Draper clone which is even cheaper.



Sent from my Redmi Note 5 using Tapatalk

 

[Seb]

Hi Bodgers

Is the Draper a clone of the TS200?

Charnwood upgraded the fence this year, as people were complaining about the old one. Good point re fair comparison being the w619 and the ts200.

The quality of the ts200 and ts250 seemed nice in store until I adjusted the blade etc and it all just seemed a bit flimsy and out of alignment. I've seen a few people mention this with regards to the riving knife.

As it stands, I'm tempted to take a punt on the new Ax with the sliding carriage (I'd have to fork out £30 for basic mitre fence anyway so makes sense to spend additional and get that in place of it), then the full base at £100 that has the cupboard. I'd then just sit it on a platform and castors.

I'm still not sure of when it comes out as the delays seem to be ongoing.

 

[woodbloke66]

I had a Charnwood W619 and within two months the saw blade bearings had packed up; I would avoid anything Charnwood like the plague - Rob

 

[lurker]

I had a Charnwood W619 and within two months the saw blade bearings had packed up; I would avoid anything Charnwood like the plague - Rob

I bought a bench grinder from Axminster and it was dangerously faulty out of box, so your experiences (like mine ) are neither here nor there.

What matters is what happens afterwards. So did Charnwood reimbuse you without quibble?

I bought a ex demo table saw from Charnwood and it developed a weird electrical fault that no one could have predicted (I know my electro mechanics) and they could not have been more helpful. The saw has since been fine for 4 years, even though I thrash it.