Apron movement on Nicholson style bench

[Doingupthehouse]

Hi,

I’ve been looking at a lot of Nicholson style benches recently, as I’m going to be building something similar. The one thing that’s confusing me is the aprons. If the apron is cut into the legs and glued to the top, it’s trapped between the top and the wall of the lap joint where it meets the leg. How do you allow for wood movement in this scenario? An 8 to 12 inch deep apron will surely have the capacity to move a fair amount.

Obviously it’s a proven design, so I might just be overthinking it.

Thoughts?

Simon

 

[dzj]

A 12" Spruce/ Pine apron over the course of a year moves about 2, maybe 3mm if flatsawn. Half of that if quartersawn. For fine furniture, this could be a problem. For a bench, not so much.

 

[nabs]

another consideration is the effect of wear and tear on these joints over the years: you can use wedges to compensate (mind you most people don't bother and seem fine without them!). This was discussed when I was making my bench:

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/english-workbench-build-t106594-90.html#p1162264

 

[Doingupthehouse]

Thanks chaps,

Just had a look through your thread Nabs, very nice bench indeed. Did you glue as well as nail your aprons on? I’m hoping to get away without the planing brace between leg and apron as I want a shelf underneath.

I’m probably mad, but I’m attempting to make a bench without any plans at all, just a vague idea in my head. Will be a bit of a hybrid. I’m also seeing how cheaply I can build it. Just for the challenge really. Managed to pick up all the timber for the undercarriage for less than £20 -including 6 x 6s for the legs. Also managed to pick up a perfectly working Record 52 1/2 quick release for a tenner (seller was very concerned and apologetic because the jaw liners were loose!)

I’d do a WIP, but I fear it will be a very slow build, as and when I can find suitable materials.

Cheers
Simon

 

[AndyT]

I don't want to send you into an endless cycle of all the bench design possibilities (and it sounds like you have some clear ideas anyway) but you might like to have a look at Mitch Peacock's channel on YouTube (WOmadeOD = made in wood).
His latest series is on making a bench for under £20, so he covers use of pallets, scrounged offcuts of decking etc.
https://www.youtube.com/user/WOmadeOD

 

[custard]

I’m probably mad, but I’m attempting to make a bench without any plans at all, just a vague idea in my head

I don't know if it's evidence of madness, but it's a fairly accurate predictor of a failed project!

Picking up tools and cutting timber without a fully dimensioned plan, a cutting list, and all the key joinery drawn out life size; just means any chance of building something you can be proud of have gone straight out of the window.

 

[thetyreman]

you shouldn't be worried about movement, worry about design and how it joins together instead, don't just think you can make this up, you will definitely come into problems if there's no solid plan, as has already been said.

 

[Geoff_S]

I’m probably mad, but I’m attempting to make a bench without any plans at all, just a vague idea in my head

I don't know if it's evidence of madness, but it's a fairly accurate predictor of a failed project!

Picking up tools and cutting timber without a fully dimensioned plan, a cutting list, and all the key joinery drawn out life size; just means any chance of building something you can be proud of have gone straight out of the window.

But where do you draw the line? Yes, I know, on a piece of paper. :wink:

But at what point do you consider a project to become complicated enough to consider a detailed plan?

 

[custard]

But at what point do you consider a project to become complicated enough to consider a detailed plan.

Fair question.

With enough experience you can embark on a project without resolving every last detail beforehand, but a beginner aiming to build a bench isn't in this category. Without a cutting list how can you source the right materials? And you can't write a cutting list without a plan.

Many people get into woodworking with loads of enthusiasm and big ambitions, but the majority of them crash and burn within a year or two, or at least that's what I see on this forum. I guess one reason is that they ricochet from one disappointing, morale sapping failure to another. The ones who commence projects with their patient, methodical heads on stand a far better chance of staying the course than the ones who rush in fizzing with enthusiasm. A good test to establish if someone is in the right mindset is to ask if they have a reasonably detailed plan before they pick up their tools.

 

[nabs]

sorry to say that all the comments thus far about the need for a decent plan were borne out in my experience too.

Although the design is not very complicated, I am pretty sure I would have wasted a lot of timber if I tried to make it up as I went along (and this would have been on top of the wastage from poor timber choices and other cock ups!).

If you really are trying to keep the budget low then a plan is your number one investment - there are plenty available free that you can adapt (Paul Sellers' version being a popular example).

Your off to a good start - 10 quid for a good Record 52 1/2 is an absolute bargain. If they were being made to that standard today I'm sure the would be north of £200

nabs
PS yes the Aprons are nailed on in mine, and the wedges tapped in tight. no glue.

 

[Doingupthehouse]

Thanks for the comments everyone.

The general consensus seems to be, I’m mad! you’re probably all right, and it’s a foolish idea. Unfortunately I’ve already made a start...

I’ll carry on anyway.. I’m not the sort of person who’ll get despondent if it doesn’t work out. I’m not doing it on the cheap because I necessarily need to, it’s just a challenge for myself. I think I may have sourced some reclaimed timber for the top, so hoping I can get the bench made for under £70 all in.

I saw the Mitch Peacock video - interesting, but not my thing. Got to admire him for doing it though.

I'll move it to a WIP thread soon, seems rude not to now. I’m quite happy to get egg on my face and admit defeat in public - in fact, I half expect to

I often find myself embarking on things without a full blown plan. This tool cabinet was built with just some rough sketches.

There were errors made, but it turned out ok and only cost me twenty quid.
I know, I know, I built it upside down :lol:

Will try and start a new WIP thread tomorrow if I get time - it will be a very slow build though, as I’m very busy with work and I’m working round whatever timber I can lay my hands on cheaply.

Cheers
Simon

 

[nabs]

fair enough! I am looking forward to the build thread

 

[Tasky]

There were errors made, but it turned out ok and only cost me twenty quid. I know, I know, I built it upside down :lol:

I was just wondering how many of them neodymium magnets you need to hold a plane to the underside of a shelf...

Nah, in my experience there is a balance between having no idea/plan, and having a fully detailed step-by-step build guide done on SketchUp that would put to shame any Ikea instruction manual.
In my previous projects (mainly non-woodwork) I've always had a basic plan, some sketches of particular details, a few measurements and a rough idea of how much material I'll need. This then allowed me to make some alterations as I went along, usually as previously unconsidered requirements/needs or better methods of working came to light.
With most benches it seems some elements are open to alteration from plans and as I understand it things like adding wedges into apron recesses are not often beyond the realms of retrofitting.

 

[Doingupthehouse]

There were errors made, but it turned out ok and only cost me twenty quid. I know, I know, I built it upside down :lol:

I was just wondering how many of them neodymium magnets you need to hold a plane to the underside of a shelf...

Nah, in my experience there is a balance between having no idea/plan, and having a fully detailed step-by-step build guide done on SketchUp that would put to shame any Ikea instruction manual.
In my previous projects (mainly non-woodwork) I've always had a basic plan, some sketches of particular details, a few measurements and a rough idea of how much material I'll need. This then allowed me to make some alterations as I went along, usually as previously unconsidered requirements/needs or better methods of working came to light.
With most benches it seems some elements are open to alteration from plans and as I understand it things like adding wedges into apron recesses are not often beyond the realms of retrofitting.

True enough, what constitutes a plan anyway? Over in my build thread it’s already said I’ve produced a plan with my rough sketch as it has some dimensions on it.

Cheers
Simon

 

[Tasky]

True enough, what constitutes a plan anyway?

Dictionarily, that'd be a detailed proposal of one's intentions... so an accurate drawing, either to specific scale or looking close enough that it's sufficient for someone else to recognise and understand, along with at least the key measurements...

 

[Brufferman]

I use an apron (+1)and rely upon it for rigidity, but it isn't attached to the legs at all....

This is my design of a portable workbench, which packs down to 6' x 1' x 1' roughly and can go in a car.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Unusual cabinet - I'd not thought of hanging my planes upside down.

 

[Doingupthehouse]

I use an apron (+1)and rely upon it for rigidity, but it isn't attached to the legs at all....

This is my design of a portable workbench, which packs down to 6' x 1' x 1' roughly and can go in a car.

I can see your apron’s not attached to your legs :lol:

Nice bench by the way.