Scheppach Ts 2000 - Arbour details

[SilverfoxGIB]

Good day guys and dolls

I am trying too (and failing) to find out the arbour length of this saw.

I want to buy a saw at a reasonable price that will enable me to use a dado cutter.

You help will be greatfully accepted.

 

[memzey]

It won't take one.

 

[memzey]

Dado stack that is. If you want a saw that will take a dado stack you will need to either look at older machines like a Wadkin AGS 10 or spend big bucks on a felder. Having said that, Woodford tooling import the Harvey 10" cabinet saw and that will take a dado stack but you will be looking at about £1,700 or thereabouts, which is probably the cheapest new saw that will meet your needs. Either way if you want to play at being Norm in your shed you will need to pick another saw :norm: !

 

[lurker]

Unless you really know what you are doing these things are rather dangerous
Those who do know what they are doing would use a machine something like what memzey recommends
Most of us would use a router or cut by hand.

Beware of all info that originated from over the pond, they all seem to have a death wish over there.

 

[SilverfoxGIB]

Many thanks for your very SWIFT replies.

Guess i will be using a saw without dado cutters now.

Thanks again.

 

[memzey]

I kind of agree with you Jim but having said that a table saw with any kind of blade could be described as "rather dangerous". The key to safe use lies with the operator as much as the tool IMHO. Dados get a bad rap but with sensible use and proper precautions they should be no more dangerous in use than any other table saw operation.

 

[SilverfoxGIB]

Either way if you want to play at being Norm in your shed you will need to pick another saw :norm: !

Thanks for that info. With that in mind, and the fact that as always budget is always a factor in the decision making process, what saw would people here suggest as a decent NEW saw and a decent USED saw. Assuming that you get more for you money buying second hand.

Almost forgot to say budget is around £150.

I have looked at many table saws and cant seem to pick a good one amongst them as they all have their good and bad points.

Many thanks in advance.

 

[MattRoberts]

A dado stack is no more dangerous than a single blade - they'll both take off a body part of you don't respect them.

I'd use a dado stack in a heartbeat if UK law didn't restrict them

 

[memzey]

Hi Silverfox - the normal question that follows a request like that is "what type of work do you want to do with it" swiftly followed by "how much space have you got" but with a budget like yours I'm not sure it makes much difference. If I were in your shoes I'd probably spend the £150 odd on some decent used hand tools and work on my skills that way as I'm not aware of a saw bench meant for accurate and repeatable work at that price point (could be proved wrong though, as others on these boards are likely to know more than me on that).

Matt - what restrictions do you mean? As far as I am aware the only rules around dado stacks are that they must be properly guarded and the blade must stop in < 10 seconds if it's being used in a commercial environment. I have one but as I'm a hobbyist I don't have to worry about the H&S inspectors coming round and closing me down.

 

[MattRoberts]

Matt - what restrictions do you mean? As far as I am aware the only rules around dado stacks are that they must be properly guarded and the blade must stop in < 10 seconds if it's being used in a commercial environment. I have one but as I'm a hobbyist I don't have to worry about the H&S inspectors coming round and closing me down.

Apparently UK or EU law / guidelines has meant that over here we can't have them, which is why we don't have long arbor saws. Not exactly sure what the issue pertains to though

Intrigued that you have one - do you have an imported saw?

 

[custard]

I use a dado stack.

Or to put it more accurately, I'll very, very occasionally use a dado stack...but only for tenons if the spindle moulder is tied up, or once in a blue moon if I'm doing loads of rebates, but never for dados.

Dado stacks made a lot of sense in the pre-router era, or maybe if you're doing long production runs in a joinery workshop. But because woodworking is so conservative they've tended to hang around even when, for all practical purposes, they've been superceded. If you've got a decent router and know how to use it I wouldn't worry too much about getting a dado stack, they're slow to set up, not particularly accurate, and they take your saw out of action.

Honestly, if someone offered me a good price for my dado stack I'd very probably take it!

 

[memzey]

I could be wrong but my understanding of law/regulation is as I've set it out in my post above. There is nothing "illegal" about them as such but their use must be subject to proper guarding and stopping times. Mine came from the states despite being made in Italy!

Surprised you find them lacking in accuracy Custard. Of the criticisms that could be levelled against them that's not one that resonates with my experiences. You are vastly more experienced than me of course so you probably know something I don't but I've been able to dial in extremely fine tolerances when I've needed to. I personally also prefer using my saw bench to a router. Electric routers are very useful but terribly noisy, dusty and dangerous things to my mind.

 

[MikeJhn]

There is nothing illegal in using a Dado stack on your table saw, Illegality means against the law and that law does not exist, the HSE have no power to ban or legislate against using any piece of equipment they only recommend on the type you should use, look it up on the HSE web site they show the different types including those they say are preferable.

Mike

 

[MattRoberts]

There's a lot of uncertainty around why UK tablesaws don't have long arbors, but the general consensus appears to be that there is a rule or regulation somewhere which restricts them...

From Bosch rep: "Using DADO blade is prohibited by EN and IEC standards. Therefore this is not offered in the European market. "

HSE guidelines : http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf

I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of those typical situations where it was stated in a guideline, and the safety police somewhere interpreted it as law...

 

[custard]

Surprised you find them lacking in accuracy Custard.

There's a couple of reasons why I say that.

Firstly, lets say you've got a big cabinet side, say 500mm deep in solid timber, if you cut a dado with a dado stack on a saw table, and then measure the depth of the dado with your callipers, you'll often find the depth varies by a few tenths of a mill across the width. Basically the workpiece has lifted slightly at some point, or it was fractionally bowed, and that's transferred directly to the depth of the dado.

Another area is the repeatability of components. Not a problem if you have a digital rise and fall on your saw table, but I don't, so if I need to repeat a cut in the future to make another component it's unlikely to exactly match something from the first batch.

I find that I hit these two problems less frequently when I'm using a router to cut a housing/dado, the router rides over any bowing in the workpiece and delivers a more consistent depth, plus the practical reality is that in a professional workshop there's always half a dozen routers, so you tend to leave each of them set up for a specific task until that particular project is completely finished and despatched to the client, which means it's easier to go back and recut a component complete with a dado that's identical to a previous component.

Just my experiences, other people may have a different take.

 

[custard]

There's a lot of uncertainty around why UK tablesaws don't have long arbors, but the general consensus appears to be that there is a rule or regulation somewhere which restricts them...

From Bosch rep: "Using DADO blade is prohibited by EN and IEC standards. Therefore this is not offered in the European market. "

HSE guidelines : http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf

I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of those typical situations where it was stated in a guideline, and the safety police somewhere interpreted it as law...

There's nothing that prohibits the use of a dado stack in the UK, what is prohibited in commercial workshops is using a dado stack without the correct guarding. Fine if you've got a Suva guard, but many (probably most) workshops don't have Suva guards, so simplest to just shorten the arbor and put an end to the discussion.

 

[MikeJhn]

Matt

Thanks for the HSE link, what I found particularly interesting:

To reduce the risk of contact with the saw blade during
run down, machines should be fitted with a braking
device that brings the blade to rest within
10 seconds. Unless already fitted with a manual or foot operated
brake, circular saw benches with a rundown
time greater than 10 seconds should have been fitted
with a braking device by 5 December 2003.

As with everything from the HSE these are guidelines only, but in the case of an accident it would be up to the responsible person to prove they either complied with the guidelines or had in operation a system that exceeded the requirement.

Interesting point is are the companies selling a table saw without a brake complying with the requirement?

Just noticed this little gem:

"Riving knife and saw guard
Suitable top guards and riving knives should be fitted
to all circular saw benches. It is vital that these are
properly adjusted for each job being carried out.
Machines should be fully enclosed beneath the table.

Mike