Woodworking vice for using bench dogs?

[sploo]

Finding myself using a hand plane and chisels more often I'm wanting to bite the bullet and finally get a suitable vice, and sort out some bench dogs (I've previously always just bodged something with clamps on the bench, which never works well when trying to plane the top of a block of wood).

My bench top is approx 45mm thick, and I was wondering if this (http://www.axminster.co.uk/record-irwin ... 7-in-boxed) would be suitable? I'd put some threaded inserts into the bench underside to mount the vice as I'd need to remove it often (or bolt it through, if necessary).

I'd then make some plates for the insides of the jaws, with one having holes for dogs, and obviously drill a few dog holes in the bench top.

Alternatively, should I be looking to spend a bit more (http://www.axminster.co.uk/record-irwin ... -front-dog) or one with a quick release (http://www.axminster.co.uk/faithfull-wo ... e-with-dog)? I see you can also get various widths. Too many choices, based on my too little knowledge!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

You'd probably need to bolt through. If you counterbore the holes you can use coach bolts (the heads are fairly shallow) as you haven't much thickness to plug the holes - not that you would if the thing has to be taken off often. Watch your local small ads. - you might get lucky - I sold a 52 1/2 and a 53 a few weeks ago for £40 each. .

 

[sploo]

You'd probably need to bolt through. If you counterbore the holes you can use coach bolts (the heads are fairly shallow) as you haven't much thickness to plug the holes - not that you would if the thing has to be taken off often. Watch your local small ads. - you might get lucky - I sold a 52 1/2 and a 53 a few weeks ago for £40 each. .

Thanks.

I've just started learning, and it does appear the old Record 52 and 53 models are worth trying to source. As far as I've been able to work out so far:

• "D" means in the pop up dog
• "E" means quick release
• "P" means plain screw (not quick release)
• 52 is 175mm (7") jaw and 200mm (8") opening - approx 9kg
• 52 1/2 is 9" jaw and 13" opening - approx 17kg
• 53 is 10 1/2" jaw and 15" opening
• You want to find one that's marked "Made in England" - later models aren't as good

I think I could live with the 52, though the 52 1/2 might be nice. The 53 is more than I need. I guess the quick release would be useful, though I suppose might have reliability issues.

I've no idea how I'd go about judging the quality/condition of one though (and/or if there was varying quality even on the "Made in England" models).


EDIT: Just to be confusing, I've spotted a 52 1/2 D on eBay... with a quick release :?

 

[mouppe]

I sold my tail vice. Never used it really. I drilled a row of 20mm dog holes parallel to the front of the bench and more often than not, use the Festool clamping elements or a holdfast.

For planing the face side of a board, you don't normally use the front vice. That's more for edges, sawing etc.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Vices are quite basic bits of machinery, really. You only need to look for rust and general abuse. A bent bar is a good sign of abuse, and sometimes the fixing lugs are broken off. Just clean the gunge off and oil the thread. If one without quick release comes your way, take it - it really doesn't matter that much.

 

[sploo]

I sold my tail vice. Never used it really. I drilled a row of 20mm dog holes parallel to the front of the bench and more often than not, use the Festool clamping elements or a holdfast.

For planing the face side of a board, you don't normally use the front vice. That's more for edges, sawing etc.

But... if you're planing the top of a 1/2" board, surely you butt one edge against dogs on the table, and one edge against dogs in the vice?

I've rigged up something similar to just a set of dogs, but always find the board moves around too much without some clamping (hence my interest in a vice).

Vices are quite basic bits of machinery, really. You only need to look for rust and general abuse. A bent bar is a good sign of abuse, and sometimes the fixing lugs are broken off. Just clean the gunge off and oil the thread. If one without quick release comes your way, take it - it really doesn't matter that much.

I'm mostly looking on fleaBay, so it's obviously that bit more difficult to check the condition (especially when you don't really know what you're looking for).

What's interesting is the variety of different shapes of the models I'm seeing (i.e. 52 1/2 E models with various different castings). I assume they're from different eras, but a bit of searching last night unfortunately didn't lead me to any conclusive "history of Record vices" type page.

 

[DennisCA]

I got the dakota vise from Rutlands, it has a built in dog so I just need to add holes in my bench, and a quick release lever. It's a heavy and durable looking thing and it was affordable. I have basically only installed it but unless the casting breaks in two or something I cannot see any flaws with it.

I installed mine as a tail vise, I have no front vise. I can just stand on the edge of the bench as well as it's side.

 

[mouppe]

I sold my tail vice. Never used it really. I drilled a row of 20mm dog holes parallel to the front of the bench and more often than not, use the Festool clamping elements or a holdfast.

For planing the face side of a board, you don't normally use the front vice. That's more for edges, sawing etc.

But... if you're planing the top of a 1/2" board, surely you butt one edge against dogs on the table, and one edge against dogs in the vice?

I've rigged up something similar to just a set of dogs, but always find the board moves around too much without some clamping (hence my interest in a vice).

I have a row of holes at the back of my bench. I put a couple of dogs in and a scrap piece of wood in between them and the wood I am planing.

 

[clauskeller]

I use two old Record vices and suggest to get one of those. They are quite often on ebay and rather cheap (and often rusty, but clean easily). Just do not buy the Irwin version, but the real old Record made in England. Be sure that the nut is working properly and is not worn.

You will soon find much use for the wide opening of these vices, therefore I would always prefer the Quick Release option, which is really nice working.

Good luck

Claus

 

[clauskeller]

Forgot to send this link about dating Record vices: record-vice-history-t68453.html

Claus

 

[JonnyW]

Hi Sploo. I've just posted this photo of my vice in another thread.

If it helps you mate, this is an old Record vice that was in my garage when I bought my house 8 odd years ago.

As was the built-in bench - approx. 3.5 metres long. The bench is as basic as it comes, but I flattened it, oiled it and added the vice.

The vice probably hasn't been put in properly and it isn't neat, but it works.

I added the hardwood to the vice jaws (sorry I don't know the technical terms here) and added the dog holes. I have them all over my bench (including the sides). God dog holes are so damned handy and the ones across from, and on the vice, really gives you so much more clamping options.

It's an older Record vice with the quick release - a thing I wouldn't do without.

My botch-up job was intended as a temporary fix and temporary improvement, as I intended on making a proper hardwood bench with a shoulder vice, tool well etc etc, but the thing works so well and does everything I need, I've never really wanted for anything else.

Jonny

 

[sploo]

I have a row of holes at the back of my bench. I put a couple of dogs in and a scrap piece of wood in between them and the wood I am planing.

Ah. Like wedges to keep it in place?

Forgot to send this link about dating Record vices: record-vice-history-t68453.html

I spotted that last night but hadn't done enough research at that point to spot a significance; that the old ones have a flat end to the screw shaft (that takes the handle) and vertical/horizontal webbing in the casting on the front face. The really old ones have a round front and webbing cast at an angle.

I've spotted a 52 with the angled webbing, but all the 52 1/2 models I've seen have are vertical/horizontal. I don't know if there's a significant difference between the two in terms of quality - but I have found a 52 1/2 E with the cover over the screw (which apparently is a feature of earlier models).

I use two old Record vices and suggest to get one of those. They are quite often on ebay and rather cheap (and often rusty, but clean easily). Just do not buy the Irwin version, but the real old Record made in England. Be sure that the nut is working properly and is not worn.

You will soon find much use for the wide opening of these vices, therefore I would always prefer the Quick Release option, which is really nice working.

Yea, the quick release and wide opening is appealing (as is having jaws of a reasonable size). Hence I'm leaning towards a 52 1/2 E.

It's an older Record vice with the quick release - a thing I wouldn't do without.

Looks good!

 

[sploo]

Just won an eBay auction for a 52 1/2 E. Cross fingers it'll be good.

 

[clauskeller]

Let us see the vice please.

Claus

 

[sploo]

Let us see the vice please.

Sure. I was going to wait until I'd got it "done", but here's some in-progress shots...

It wasn't in terrible condition when it arrived - a fair bit of paint and glue on the surfaces. There was some surface rust, and a lot of layers of "scut", but everything seemed to move OK:

A few hours with rust remover, wire wool, and finally some Liberon lubricating wax and she's looking pretty decent. I can't do much about the scratches in the original blue paint, and I don't want to sand and respray:

My bench is 45mm thick, so I'm making a spacer block from laminated ply. Small starter holes, then Forstner holes on the other side, before drilling out to the right size for some bolts:

Test fitting with just two of the four bolts:

I want to avoid drilling down through the top of my workbench for supports, so I'm planning an array of fat screws up through the spacer block into the bottom.

I'd say that the photos make the condition of the vice look worse than it is (it seems to bring out any blemishes, which aren't that visible in normal light).

Oh - I've also confirmed via Paul Sellers that this is a "good" one - it's not just the really old ones with the front ridges that fan out at an angle.

 

[clauskeller]

Looks nice, congratulations and welcome to the club.

Claus

 

[sploo]

Looks nice, congratulations and welcome to the club.

Claus

Danke schön!

It is now mounted, but still work to do. Probably a couple of days before I get time to post more pics though.

 

[sploo]

I drilled and countersunk a set of holes in the mounting block:

I mounted the block to the vice (using the bolts) then used clamps to hold the block to the underside of my bench. That allowed me to get the positioning just right, then remove the vice so I could drill pilot holes in the underside of the bench.

The block was then fitted, and the rear bolts added:

Finally, the vice in place:

The method that Paul Sellers showed in his workbench series was to then screw the rear jaw into the bench (with the lining over the rear jaw being fixed by screws either side of the vice). There's very little flex with it now, but I do think it's a good idea.

Unfortunately, the holes in the rear jaw are very close to the line between the bench top and mounting block. Given how well the block is fixed I suspect it'll be OK to screw into/near the join, but it's not ideal. Obviously I've still got the jaw linings to do.

At the moment I'm trying to decide between 3/4" linings with a single rectangular dog in the front jaw, or something thicker with three round dog holes (like the image in JonnyW's post). I like the idea of round dogs, but it would require a pretty thick front jaw lining. I suppose I could make both options, as it's only going to be a case of removing a couple of screws to change between them.

 

[JonnyW]

Looking good Sploo. You've made a really good job of bringing that vice back to life. I wish I'd done the same!

I know what you're saying about the thickness of the jaw liner to take the three dog holes, however I've never regretted the loss of an inch or so clamping area, as it opens up so much more clamping options.

Good idea having that liner to bolt in depending on what you're doing - but would you really be bothered taking one out and sticking another in?

Jonny

 

[sploo]

Looking good Sploo. You've made a really good job of bringing that vice back to life. I wish I'd done the same!

I know what you're saying about the thickness of the jaw liner to take the three dog holes, however I've never regretted the loss of an inch or so clamping area, as it opens up so much more clamping options.

Good idea having that liner to bolt in depending on what you're doing - but would you really be bothered taking one out and sticking another in?

Jonny

Thanks. It was a few hours' worth of work with steel wool, but it was worth it.

I strongly doubt I'll ever have a problem with the jaw capacity; it's actually more an issue of how deep the vice will be when closed. My workshop (garage) is tiny, so the table it's attached to is my main workbench (which is actually also my router table).

I'd originally even thought about mounting the vice so I could remove it when not required, but so far it's not really in the way. Having it stick out another ~2-3" (due to a thick jaw lining) might be more of a pain.

Given that changing the front jaw lining would just be a simple job of two screws I might have a go at making both options (though I haven't made any dogs yet)!