What a difference a saw makes.....

[YorkshireMartin]

I've just started to hand cut my tenons for my first ever project. I purchased a £12 Irwin tenon saw, thinking it would do the job as all it needs to do is cut tenons, which it is designed for, right? Oh dear me.

They do saw a bad workman blames his tools but I've gone from cutting a line with the Irwin which looked like the edge of a waney oak board, to being able to cut to within a fraction of my marks, overnight. All due to a change in saw. The difference is utterly unbelievable. Not only does it take literally a quarter of the time to make a cut, it cuts straight, even in my inexperienced hands. The consequence of course is less time spent paring the shoulders and cheeks.

My first tenon took me 1 hour to cut with paring. My second, about 5 minutes.

Anyone else considering a cheap tenon saw, life is too short!

Whoever it was from here that said that the "go to" saw for beginner tenon cheeks is the Veritas rip cut, thank you!

 

[matthewwh]

The saying doesn't mean that all tools are infallible.

It means that a good workman does exactly what you have done. Invests in good quality tools that are suitable for the purpose and then looks after them.

: )

 

[griggs]

What would be interesting if after doing a few tenons with your Veritas and the confidence it inspires in you is to then do one with the Irwin to see if you then find it easier to get good results with it, a kind of placebo effect I guess.

 

[Racers]

Tenon saws are like girls, the ones with black teeth are best avoided.

:shock:

Pete

 

[Zeddedhed]

Tenon saws are like girls, the ones with black teeth are best avoided.

:shock:

Pete

What sort of girls do you know??
You've obviously had a bad experience with a black toothed one. How did it ever get that far??

 

[Racers]

I couldn't possibly comment.



Pete

 

[bugbear]

What would be interesting if after doing a few tenons with your Veritas and the confidence it inspires in you is to then do one with the Irwin to see if you then find it easier to get good results with it, a kind of placebo effect I guess.

Dunno about placebo; I suspect acquiring good technique is easier when you're not fighting the saw every inch of the way.

BugBear

 

[G S Haydon]

I think the Irwin's are x-cut pattern and fine too. I've found them superb for shoulders and fine work. Not good for ripping cuts though. Hope this does not seem rude but perhaps it's picking the right tool for the task?

 

[AJB Temple]

In WH Smiths currently is the 2016 Tool Guide magazine. This is American so they have brands like Grizzly.

This magazine is £5.50 well spent as it has some very straightforward reviews of bandsaws, cordless tools, hand saws and lots of stuff we want but don't need. Our yankie friends have a thing called "backsaws" or "carcase saws", which we call tenon saws. They review about 20 of them and the eritas crosscut at $79 is rated as best value and excellent. They are dead ugly with a black plastic backs (I think it is plastic) but the review rated it very highly for rip and cross. (So don't bother with the rip version) I have one and I agree it is a superb saw and good value. Cheap in fact, for the quality and performance.

Several saws were rated very highly, not least a Lie Nielsen tapered cross cut which is $140 stateside.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

There is a bit of all the above going on I'm sure.

In terms of a placebo effect, I would agree that holding a well made hand tool makes you feel like a craftsman, even if, as in my case, you're not. But it's not always about price, I'm perfectly happy with my £10 Stanley Fatmax fine cut toolbox saw for general sawing, it's sharp and does the job quickly. The Irwin saw, well, it just didn't.

I did a quick scout around before buying it and some people said it was good, others not. To be honest, with anything made in China, the QC is often so haphazard that one customer might get a perfectly usable sharp saw, whilst another might get the saw equivalent of a butter knife.

The difference was so marked in this case. Forgetting about technique and experience for a second, the amount of dust the Veritas shifts compared to the Irwin, I mean, it's just not comparable and given that my technique is just as bad on either saw, this has to say something about the veritas.

The Irwin in question is the 3055. Since they don't advertise the tooth pattern for it on the sleeve, I've no idea if it's rip or cross but I've actually tried it on just a rough cross grain cut and it was still poor there. The one I have is basically junk. Even SWMBO said it was blunt, which is basically code for "yes, you can buy a better saw". Who am I to argue with that? :lol:

It definitely opened my eyes, in any case.

 

[JonnyW]

I agree with you there YorkshireMartin, better tools make you work that little bit better. And it's basic human nature to try and 'upgrade'. I have a couple of Lie Nielsen saws, and they are simply out of this world to work with. I need a tenon saw and was tempted by the Veritas rip tenon.

Jonny

 

[Bluekingfisher]

I bought a very cheap unbranded saw years ago and had similar troubles. Someone suggested I try reducing the set of the teeth. I did this very crudely by placing the saw plate on the anvil of my machine vice and placing a sheet of printer paper oner the teeth then gave them all a slight bash with a mash hammer.

It definately improved the performance although I wouldn't dare compare them to my better saws I now own.

David

 

[Jelly]

Our yankie friends have a thing called "backsaws" or "carcase saws", which we call tenon saws. They review about 20 of them and the eritas crosscut at $79 is rated as best value and excellent. They are dead ugly with a black plastic backs (I think it is plastic) but the review rated it very highly for rip and cross. (So don't bother with the rip version)

Backsaws are anything with a brass/steel/composite/wood back which stiffens a very thin sawplate; there are a myriad of options from huge, to tiny.

• Mitre Saw:
  • 18" to 30" blade
  • 4" to 5" deep
  • 8-12 TPI
  • crosscut filing
  • for use in a mitre box/guide
• Carcase Saws:
  • 18" to 14"
  • 3" to 4" deep
  • 10-12 TPI
  • crosscut filing
  • for preparing the boards of carcase work.
• Tennon Saw:
  • 14" to 10"
  • 2½" to 3" deep
  • 10-15 TPI
  • Crosscut and Rip cut filings available, Rip cut tending to be at the finer end of the TPI range
  • for cutting Tennon cheeks/shoulders.
• Dovetail Saw:
  • 10" to 6"
  • 1¾" to 3" Deep possibly tapering in upto ½" from heel to toe
  • 12-20 TPI
  • rip cut filing
  • open handles common
  • for cutting dovetails and other small joints.
• Gent's Saw:
  • 12" to 8"
  • 2½" to 1¾" deep
  • 15-20+ TPI
  • rip filing more common but crosscut sometimes availible
  • turned handle, with reversible and offset flush cutting handle arrangements available
  • for making fine cuts with restricted access, and very detailed work
  • the 20+ TPI Saws are often sold as "razor Saws".

The suggestion of only getting the crosscut filing of a Dovetail saw I find confusing, as the conventional wisdom (which in my experience is accurate) suggests that below 15 TPI, rip cut filing is equally effective for both cross and Rip cutting, the same does not hold of crosscut filing. A 20 TPI crosscut filing is also an absolute nightmare to maintain compared to a rip-cut filing, I did prepare a crosscut Dovetail saw once, but had so little use for it I re-filed back to rip-cut as a spare.

On an entirely personal note I really dislike the veritas Dovetail Saws, part of it is aesthetics but I did use one and did not get along with it. I'll be sticking to my Tyzacks, Disstons and Footprint almost all of which were less than a fiver.

 

[Penfold]

All my back saws have been purchased off eBay or boot sales, most are over 100 years old and are made like Rolls Royce's, a sharpen and clean up and there are very few modern saws that can match them, those that can are 50 times their cost.

 

[JonnyW]

On an entirely personal note I really dislike the veritas Dovetail Saws, part of it is aesthetics but I did use one and did not get along with it. I'll be sticking to my Tyzacks, Disstons and Footprint almost all of which were less than a fiver.

Jelly - your Tyzack, Disstons and Footprint - any of these in your ownership rip tenon saws? if so, what like are they?

Thanks

Jonny

 

[Alder]

I once bought a £3.50 saw (new). I eventually got it to saw square (90 degrees) by holding it at an angle of 60 degrees.
Russell

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I once bought a £3.50 saw (new). I eventually got it to saw square (90 degrees) by holding it at an angle of 60 degrees.
Russell

:shock:

About the only consolation in those circumstances is that it didn't cost much in the first place. Any chance of fettling it up into something more acceptable?

 

[matthewwh]

If we're going to get perschnickerty then the tenon saws in Jelly's excellent list are actually sash saws, so the term 'tenon saw' is the imposter, not backsaw which is the correct collective name for all of them.
(I only learned this recently when talking with Shane Skelton)
</pedant>

 

[pedder]

Backsaws are anything with a brass/steel/composite/wood back which stiffens a very thin sawplate; there are a myriad of options from huge, to tiny.

• Mitre Saw:
  • 18" to 30" blade
  • 4" to 5" deep
  • 8-12 TPI
  • crosscut filing
  • for use in a mitre box/guide
• Carcase Saws:
  • 18" to 14"
  • 3" to 4" deep
  • 10-12 TPI
  • crosscut filing
  • for preparing the boards of carcase work.
• Tennon Saw:
  • 14" to 10"
  • 2½" to 3" deep
  • 10-15 TPI
  • Crosscut and Rip cut filings available, Rip cut tending to be at the finer end of the TPI range
  • for cutting Tennon cheeks/shoulders.
• Dovetail Saw:
  • 10" to 6"
  • 1¾" to 3" Deep possibly tapering in upto ½" from heel to toe
  • 12-20 TPI
  • rip cut filing
  • open handles common
  • for cutting dovetails and other small joints.
• Gent's Saw:
  • 12" to 8"
  • 2½" to 1¾" deep
  • 15-20+ TPI
  • rip filing more common but crosscut sometimes availible
  • turned handle, with reversible and offset flush cutting handle arrangements available
  • for making fine cuts with restricted access, and very detailed work
  • the 20+ TPI Saws are often sold as "razor Saws".

[/quote]

Hi Jelly

With all respect to your knowledge, I learned it a bit different:

Very long and intersting reading:
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/artic ... n_backsaws

Back in history there seemed to be no or just little difference in filing saw for crosscuts or rip cuts. So you can have every saw filed either rip or cc.

Cheers
Pedder

 

[Jelly]

On an entirely personal note I really dislike the veritas Dovetail Saws, part of it is aesthetics but I did use one and did not get along with it. I'll be sticking to my Tyzacks, Disstons and Footprint almost all of which were less than a fiver.

Jelly - your Tyzack, Disstons and Footprint - any of these in your ownership rip tenon saws? if so, what like are they?

Thanks

Jonny

I have quite a few Tennon Saws, one of my Tyzack Saws is Rip filed with about 10 TPI, it's a nice saw giving a clean cut and quite a narrow kerf, when I got it the teeth were seriously mangled and I couldn't tell if it was originally Rip or crosscut, I already had a very similar one with a crosscut filing, so I re-did that one Rip.

I don't tend to saw my Tennon cheeks that often, preferring to split and pare with a wide firmer chisel or my recently acquired axe (it was a revelation how useful an axe can be for doing quite fine work (as long as the joints are big enough to give you access); that's not a refection on the saw which performs very well and usually comes out if I'm forced to cut Tennons near knots, or when the grain would work against me if I was splitting, also handy for cutting big dovetails!

If you have the space and means for a number of backsaws, I would heartily recommend having a tennon saw of both types of filing, along with a Dovetail saw; I might also suggest that if you only had space for two, a larger carcase saw type for crosscut with a small Tennon saw in a fine toothed Rip filing, which could do almost every job a backsaw should do.

Pedder, that's just what I've gleaned from handling the tools and the names that those around me have used as I've learned; essentially there is a backsaw for every purpose, and then some! I will be doing some reading tonight, as that sounds like an interesting article.

Edit: That was an interesting article, thanks Pedder. I had a quick flick through the "woodwork tools" volume of Evans' Bros. Woodworker series, which fills a mid-point between the smiths key in 1816 and now, having been published in around 1926. by that point the Tennon saw had shrunk to 12-14in in common usage... I have clearly however confused the Sash and Carcase saws however...