Veritas or PAX?

[GLFaria]

I posted something about this in the Buying Advice forum, but either the matter is not interesting enough (in which case I apologize for getting back to the subject) or it went unnoticed - I got just one reply. I went through the search tool but found no real enlightening answer to my quest, so I hope you won't mind, as I must make a decision.

Dovetail saw, flush cutting saw - should I go for the Veritas or the PAX? Or are they on the same level?

Thanks

G.

 

[Fromey]

The Veritas DT saw is well made and good value. However, it is quite light and 20 tpi. The PAX is much more expensive but has a brass back which makes it heavier and that reportedly aids in cutting. Also, a 15 tpi saw may be better (it's more aggressive and so quicker; many woodworkers (e.g., Rob Cossman) recommend that).

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I'm not sure I have an opinion between Veritas and Pax; I think they're both basically good saws.

However, something that might be worth consideration is the tooth size. I feel that 20tpi is better for very small work in timbers of 1/2" thickness and less, and 15tpi better for larger dovetails such as those found in carcase and drawer construction. Either size of tooth will do all the work, it's just that smaller teeth suit smaller work.

 

[undergroundhunter]

I have a pax DT saw, mine is a 10" 15TPI from Peter Sefton. The only negative is that the handle is masive and I have coal shovels for hands, other than that its fantastic.

I havent has a chance to use a veritas saw so can't pass judgement.

Matt

 

[Jacob]

I wouldn't bother with a flush cutting saw at all, unless you really have a special need for one.

 

[paulm]

I have tried the veritas before and liked how it felt and performed, but very fine tpi as mentioned. I Haven't tried the pax but, as with much veritas stuff the veritas saw aesthetics disturb me and I wouldn't/couldn't live with them on a daily basis, but that's just me being shallow and superficial

Cheers, Paul

 

[Peter Sefton]

Hi G

As mentioned above part of the decision may come from how thick is the timber you are looking to cut dovetails in and large part is down to budget.

The Veritas Saws are very good value for money but are light weight, some like this but some don't, the 20TPI fine Dovetails saw is great I am not a fan of the 14TPI it is a bit snatchy, I have 7 of these in the students tool kits but after they have tried the 20TPI they tend to buy this. I do have my reservations on the longevity of the handle fixing to the bodies, Veritas do like to try new designs rather than tried and tested ones.

The Pax 1776 is a hand filed Saw and much heaveir than the Veritas, these cost about twice the price but will last a life time. The quality of cut and feel is better than the Veritas with a traditional pistol grip handle. I use the 20 TPI but do also get the 15TPI for larger dovetail work.

One other option is the Dorchester with the Walnut handle, this comes in about £20 cheaper than the Pax 1776 and is hand filed but can not match the clean cut and smoothness of the Pax 1776. I would also recommend that you go for a RIP cut rather than a cross cut. You will find a 1776 RIP will also cut better across the grain than a cheaper cross cut saw.

The flush cuts are not overly expensive, I used to stock both the Veritas and Pax but have chosen to just sell the Pax, I will say no more.

I do stock all three of these brands so have no axe to grind, we usually have them in stock but we have had a good run over Christmas and are now restocking with some of the hand made Sheffield saws.

Here is an article I wrote a few years ago that was the starting point of our tool shop, any other questions feel free to give me a call.

http://www.peterseftonfurnitureschool.c ... icle57.pdf

Cheers Peter

 

[matthewwh]

Have you considered Japanese dovetail saws?

Some prefer the western style, but you do get an awful lot of performance per £ with a good quality dozuki.

 

[GLFaria]

Thank you, people, for all the advice. I still did not make up my mind (searching the net, opinions seem to be even - with maybe a slight bias towards the PAX by the UK writers :wink: ). Does Paul Sellers have any interest in Veritas? He seems to be enthusiastic about their saw.

I am not much worried about looks, but I am interested in quality and performance, within my budget range - which is limited.
I am not really going to use this saw much to cut dovetails, more as a general purpose saw for small, light work with soft woods like white pine - my 15 TPI Bahco cross-cut is too rough for that kind of work, so I have been using a small hacksaw, but just can't keep a straight cut with it.
I would (will?...) go for 20 TPI rip, it's just the ocasional sharpening bit that scares me - ruining a fine saw is not my idea of fun.

Peter, thanks for your extensive reply. I have your article in my "library" ever since I found it in the net about a year ago. A fine review, and certainly a help, it was the first article I went looking for when I decided to buy a dovetail saw. I will send you a PM concerning the flush cut.

G.

 

[James C]

Hello,

I went through the same process and ended up buying the Veritas 20TPI saw. I based my choice on Peters article and on trying the saw in my hand. The Veritas is very comfortable and is great in use. I agree with Peter about the snatchy qualities of the 14TPI.

Even though I love my Veritas dovetail saw I have grown to regret it as a purchase as I would have liked to support a British supplier. However I couldn't justify it as a purchase considering my means.

I think that with either saw you would be happy with the build quality and performance. The main factors that separate the two for me are cost, looks and country of origin.

 

[Peter Sefton]

Thank you, people, for all the advice. I still did not make up my mind (searching the net, opinions seem to be even - with maybe a slight bias towards the PAX by the UK writers :wink: ). Does Paul Sellers have any interest in Veritas? He seems to be enthusiastic about their saw.

I am not much worried about looks, but I am interested in quality and performance, within my budget range - which is limited.
I am not really going to use this saw much to cut dovetails, more as a general purpose saw for small, light work with soft woods like white pine - my 15 TPI Bahco cross-cut is too rough for that kind of work, so I have been using a small hacksaw, but just can't keep a straight cut with it.
I would (will?...) go for 20 TPI rip, it's just the ocasional sharpening bit that scares me - ruining a fine saw is not my idea of fun.

Peter, thanks for your extensive reply. I have your article in my "library" ever since I found it in the net about a year ago. A fine review, and certainly a help, it was the first article I went looking for when I decided to buy a dovetail saw. I will send you a PM concerning the flush cut.

G.

Thanks G, PM sent

I have had people but the Veritas saws and treat them like disposable saws buying a new one when it goes blunt. This seems a little extreme as you may as well give sharpening ago as long as you don't spend to much on the sharpening set up.

Cheers Peter

 

[James C]

I would think that anyone who is buying new Veritas saws when they go blunt at that price should be sending them to someone who could actually put them to good use.

I'd hate to think that decent useable tools were sitting unused somewhere.

 

[Biliphuster]

If you ebay the old one as a used saw, mention it is slightly blunt, you could probably recoup a fair amount of a new one. So not completely barmy

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

I would lean towards the traditional look/feel of the Pax (I do have a newish Pax, w/walnut handle as well as a Veritas). The Pax, with the brass spine feels like the saws of old and, at least for me, the weight about the saw plate aids in my sawing accuracy.

Either saw will eventually need sharpened, and neither will be a collectable (at least in our lifetime) so don't be afraid to use whichever saw you buy as the tool it is meant to be.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I posted something about this in the Buying Advice forum, but either the matter is not interesting enough (in which case I apologize for getting back to the subject) or it went unnoticed - I got just one reply. I went through the search tool but found no real enlightening answer to my quest, so I hope you won't mind, as I must make a decision.

Dovetail saw, flush cutting saw - should I go for the Veritas or the PAX? Or are they on the same level?

Thanks

G.

There are two Veritas flush cutting saws - still available? One has a black plastic handle and the other has a wood handle. I have used both. The one with the wooden handle is the one to get. It is excellent, and Chris Schwartz has said the same - google for the review in his blog.

I am surprised at the comments of the 14 ppi Veritas dovetail saw being "snatchy". It has a very relaxed 14-degree rake, which makes it very smooth to start and saw. It is the ultimate beginners Western dovetail saw. I have no knowledge of the Pax, so cannot compare, but own a few other makes, such as LN, Gramercy and Wenzloff, and the Veritas holds its own. It is not a "lightweight" saw if this means it is a poorer performer. It is up there with the best. The only downside is the price in the UK, where it is likely to cost much more that it does elsewhere in the world, which takes it out of its real cost bracket.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[rwyoung]

I posted something about this in the Buying Advice forum, but either the matter is not interesting enough (in which case I apologize for getting back to the subject) or it went unnoticed - I got just one reply. I went through the search tool but found no real enlightening answer to my quest, so I hope you won't mind, as I must make a decision.

Dovetail saw, flush cutting saw - should I go for the Veritas or the PAX? Or are they on the same level?

Thanks

G.

...
I am surprised at the comments of the 14 ppi Veritas dovetail saw being "snatchy". It has a very relaxed 14-degree rake, which makes it very smooth to start and saw.
...
Regards from Perth

Derek

This. I've not had an issue with the 14ppi Veritas DT saw being "snatchy". In fact, I have resharpened it a few times now and have its rake at something more (less?) akin to 5° and it is a FAST and accurate saw.

The sharpening geometry on ANY decent steel can be modified to suit the user. Easy work and nothing to be afraid of doing.

Edit to add - typically I work in the following woods with this saw: white pine, yellow pine, poplar, (American black) cherry, (American black) walnut, white oak, red oak, Khaya, Sapele, soft maple and hard (sugar) maple. The only one to give me any issues with starting the saw has been yellow pine as I keep the set narrow.

 

[GLFaria]

Hi
I am sure this is a trivial matter to most, if not all, in this forum, but it is not such for me. So, my thanks to all who helped with their comments, most especially to Peter Sefton.

In view of the type of work I do, of said comments, and of several articles I read, I decided to go for the following:

For a DT (nominally at least, as it will be mostly used for cutting small stock) saw, the Veritas 20 TPI, for its price, quality, and in the whole favorable comments (certainly not for its looks - the handle is nice, but for the rest...). Regarding the lack of weight, I learned long ago that, in case the need is felt, it is much easier to add weight to almost any kind of implement than it is to take weight off...

For a flush cut, it's the PAX - for price, quality, and yes, looks! I must say I am a little wary of the handle shape, but the only way to know if it fits is to try it.

Thanks again

Edit: rip cut in both saws
G.

 

[bridger]

Dont worry about ruining it while sharpening. Do a little reading and dive right in. Be proactive about developing skill with sharpening and it will be all uphill. Saw ruining happens when someone who doesn't give a damn owns and sharpens a saw for an extended period of time.

Thank you, people, for all the advice. I still did not make up my mind (searching the net, opinions seem to be even - with maybe a slight bias towards the PAX by the UK writers :wink: ). Does Paul Sellers have any interest in Veritas? He seems to be enthusiastic about their saw.

I am not much worried about looks, but I am interested in quality and performance, within my budget range - which is limited.
I am not really going to use this saw much to cut dovetails, more as a general purpose saw for small, light work with soft woods like white pine - my 15 TPI Bahco cross-cut is too rough for that kind of work, so I have been using a small hacksaw, but just can't keep a straight cut with it.
I would (will?...) go for 20 TPI rip, it's just the ocasional sharpening bit that scares me - ruining a fine saw is not my idea of fun.

Peter, thanks for your extensive reply. I have your article in my "library" ever since I found it in the net about a year ago. A fine review, and certainly a help, it was the first article I went looking for when I decided to buy a dovetail saw. I will send you a PM concerning the flush cut.

G.

 

[James C]

Buying the right tool is definitely not a trivial matter. Admittedly I don't make a living off of my tools, but I try to buy things that will be working when I retire (still about 40 Years off) and after I can no longer use them.

Hope you enjoy the Saws. I have been using my Veritas again this weekend. The aesthetics have grown on me slightly but I still can't call it beautiful. Lovely user though.

 

[MIGNAL]

Does it really need to be 20 TPI? I have the Veritas Carcass X cut saw (14 TPI?) and it works perfectly well on thin material - 5, 6 mm stuff. It's a fairly thin kerf (0.7mm) because Veritas use 0.5 mm saw plate.
I just mention it because 20 TPI isn't the easiest to sharpen. Easy to 'touch up' but at some point you are going to have to do a bit more than that. Rather something like 14, 15 TPI than 20.
If you really want a very fine saw for shallow cuts in thin material (4 or 5 mm stuff) it's hard to beat the Tamayo model makers saw. Very fine blade (you get 2 of them) all for around 14 pounds delivered from Hong Kong.