Spindle Moulder Advice

[rhrwilliams]

Hi all, I was dead set on buying a spindle moulder , so I've found one at a good price (£400) (its a Startrite T30) but I'm now having second thoughts and was wondering if anyone could clear up a few questions I have...

I primarily want the spindle moulder for a house renovation I'm doing . need lots of coving (Timber not plaster), lots of skirting and lots and lots and lots (and lots) of panelling. I am also making doors etc but will not need the spindle for them as they are simple victorian 4 panel ones and I've done them so far with a router and jigs.

I assumed the tooling would be chepish - but from my internet research it is not as cheap as I thought for tooling and now I'm having second thoughts .....

Am I correct in thinking that I could buy the following and be reasonably ready to go ;

- a Whitehill Universal block (£95)
- A set of cornice cutters and limiters (£110) .....such as from http://www.whitehill-tools.com/catalogu ... =1&c2id=15
- Any other cutters / Limiters I need e.g for skirting (roughly £100 ?)

So after the spindle purchase, I would be in for roughly £300 for a block and 2 big sets of cutters ? (I am also booking myself if I get the spindle on a course on using it as I'm worried about safety as I've not used one before)

Thanks

 

[RobinBHM]

As youve realised, a spindle is a hugely versatile machine.........with lots of cutter blocks and cutters.

There are a few standard moulding cutters that would be suitable for skirting and panel moulds. Wealdon tools, axminster etc stock them. Whitehill also do some ogee and torus cutters for a universal block. Standard cutters probably start at about £35.00 for cutters and limiters.

I would probably think about doing your own mouldings that are possible within the range of one moulding block to keep costs realistic. I dont think I would buy cornice cutters and block -its lot to invest for one moulding.

Also consider that a power feed is key to achieving a good finish when running out mouldings.

Training -a very wise idea for a spindle moulder.

A Startrite spindle moulder is certainly a good quality machine able to produce quality work.

 

[doctor Bob]

a standard universal block won't take the coving cutters. You will need a bigger block 100mm high. I don't know if a T30 will take a block that size and it may well be under powered.
I run a 100mm block on a 7hp machine, my 4hp berg 2 struggles a bit on big cutters.

 

[Jacob]

Many mouldings are actually cheaper off the peg compared to the cost of the wood bought sawn. So unless you want to copy something very specifically, it's not necessarily a good idea to DIY.
If you do want to copy then you get into expensive tooling, unless you make your own cutters when it becomes very cheap - cheaper than router cutters. But this isn't for everybody.

yes and power feed is more or less essential for good quality of work and safety

 

[rhrwilliams]

All thanks for the input , this forum is great for stuff like this .

Taking on board what's been said , I think I am best to pass on the spindle and buy in the bits I need like coving and skirting . When you factor in all the tooling , the tuition course and the fact that the machine may struggle anyway to do the big moulds , AND I would have to buy a power feed , just seems like too much for me at the moment . I may be out of my depth

Realistically I can do the panneling and other bits on my router table anyway . If I do need a spindle for a one off job I have a friend with one which I could utilise for a few hours . That seems to be the sensible option .

Thanks all

Richard

 

[RogerS]

Don't be put off by some of the disinformation above. Doctor Bob talks a lot of sense.

On the other hand, ignore the statement that bespoke cutters are expensive...it's not that expensive especially when you factor in that you are getting something that matches existing stuff.

 

[Jacob]

Don't be put off by some of the disinformation above. Doctor Bob talks a lot of sense.

On the other hand, ignore the statement that bespoke cutters are expensive...it's not that expensive especially when you factor in that you are getting something that matches existing stuff.

Get a price and make your own mind up. Personally I think they are expensive and sometimes not as precise copies as you'd expect.

 

[RogerS]

Don't be put off by some of the disinformation above. Doctor Bob talks a lot of sense.

On the other hand, ignore the statement that bespoke cutters are expensive...it's not that expensive especially when you factor in that you are getting something that matches existing stuff.

..... sometimes not as precise copies as you'd expect.

Not to worry, Jacob. I'm sure you'll get the hang of it eventually.

 

[deema]

The three machines that I use the most in order are, Table saw, Planer Thicknesser and the Spindle moulder.

Standard tooling is very cheap if you compare it to router bits and bobs IMO, especially if you can use 40mm cutters where replacements cutters can be as little as £10 for a pair. If you have a spindle moulder you can create your mouldings of any shape you really want, cornice moulding really needs a large spindle moulder and the Startrite is probably not the right machine for this type of work. Standard blocks come up all the time on auction WEB sites at very affordable prices, but before you rush out and buy any read and digest the Spindle Moulder handbook. It's an expensive book, but for anyone contemplating a machine its IMO imperative reading.
I would stay away from second hand cutters, a dull cutter is an appendidge remover! Serrated blocks and cutters are also best avoided for anyone new to the machine.

I would personally put the extra cash for the new block and cutters into getting the biggest machine that you can accommodate. The bigger the table, the heavier the machine and the more solid the fences the better. A big motor is also a big must. Tilting arbours are great, but for hobby / occasional use not really worth it, as the machines cost a lot more.

A nice Sedgwick SM3 or better still a SM4 (I've never had a problem running a 100mm tall block on a single phase SM4ii) should be within your budget, great honest machines with little to go wrong, no twinkly bits, so take a little longer at first to setup (until you get a feel for the machine) and hold their value. I used to manually feed stuff through the spindle by hand, however one day I made a silly mistake and was lucky not to have a serious accident. I've since invested in the biggest power feed I could find, and this IMO takes the worry out of using the machine. Your hands never ever get close to the blades. Again, power feeds hold their value well, if you decide to get one try to buy the biggest industrial one you can afford.

Over the years with patience and a certain amount of luck I've managed to collect every block I will ever need for a very small investment, most blocks have been £10~£30, and believe I've spent far less on cutters than if I'd gone down the router table route.

I also have a half set of hollows and rounds moulding planes and a no 45 universal plane (mainly to cut th rebates before you use the H&Rs). With these I can just about replicate any traditional skirting or cornice moulding. The addition of a couple of Snipe Bill planes would make it possible to do anything I've seen. This is an alternative route you may not have considered. It takes a little practice and a long bench to make skirting and cornice mouldings, great cardio work out, but very satisfying. I've seen half sets if H&R sell for c £250 (Skew bladed sets are not necessary unless your cutting across the grain, they are rarer and sell for a higher price) and a no 45 with a full, set of cutters for c£45 recently on auction WEB sites.

 

[RobinBHM]

For cutter profiling, Ive found this company reasonable and very quick.

http://cutterprofilers.co.uk/html/cutte ... _list.html

It is certainly true to say a spindle moulder wont save money machining standard softwood skirtings, panel beads etc. One of the problems would be buying joinery grade softwood at a reasonable price, the cost from a local timber merchant is likely to be not much different to the cost of a finished moulding. Also good timber merchants will machine mouldings from grade 1 or 2, so virtually knot free, whereas joinery PAR, the only option for the general user to buy will be the lower grades of unsorted or possibly fifths.

For bespoke mouldings and for creating mouldings in hardwood a spindle moulder can be a great addition to a keen hobbyist woodworker. I wouldnt consider using a spindle moulder without a power feed, I dont consider it a very useful machine without one (or very safe).

Spindle tooling can be hugely expensive, with a collection of worth many times the cost of the machine itself. Having said that, a lot can be done with a universal block and a rebate block.

Does anybody know where the standard cutter profiles originated? Ive always thought they are a weird collection that has a limited practical application.

 

[RogerS]

.....
Does anybody know where the standard cutter profiles originated? Ive always thought they are a weird collection that has a limited practical application.

+1. A stranger set would be hard to come by !!

 

[Jacob]

....
Does anybody know where the standard cutter profiles originated? Ive always thought they are a weird collection that has a limited practical application.

By and large designed by people who have never looked at any trad joinery.
They are quite easy to tweak however and it's only a short step from there to making your own. To tweak them you need a 6" bench grinder with ons square and one round edge at 1/2" wide, and ditto at 1/4". They don't have to match exactly and it's OK (within reason) to have just one cutter cutting and the other balancing

 

[doctor Bob]

They don't have to match exactly and it's OK (within reason) to have just one cutter cutting and the other balancing

also you could drive down the M1 doing this

............. however I wouldn't recommend it unlike some

 

[RogerS]

.... Personally I think they are expensive and sometimes not as precise copies as you'd expect.

....They don't have to match exactly and it's OK (within reason) to have just one cutter cutting and the other balancing

Make your mind up, sunshine.

 

[deema]

Perhaps it just me, but I've found the standard cutters to cover the vast majority of anything you need to do. A little imagination and sometimes more than one run through with different cutters is required, but most moulding I've found can be created with a combination of what's available.

Jacobs point of modifying cutters / making your own used to be stabdard practice nit that long ago for any joinery shop. A simple balance was used to ensure that the balancing cutter was equal in weight. Generally only one cutter was profiled on the grinder as making two that matched was next to impossible.

If only I'd a little more room, the usual cry I know, I would have invested in a profile grinder. They seem to pop up fairly regularly on an auction site and that would be liberating.

With the exception of dedicated window tooling, all of the other blocks, groovers, wobble saws, planing, cill profiling blocks etc I have with patience picked up for less than £50 each on auction sites / closing down wood shops etc.

 

[Jacob]

.... Personally I think they are expensive and sometimes not as precise copies as you'd expect.

....They don't have to match exactly and it's OK (within reason) to have just one cutter cutting and the other balancing

Make your mind up, sunshine.

You haven't understood what I was saying Roger, as usual.
Copy machined cutters should be identical to each other, but are sometimes not quite spot on with the sample moulding being copied. It's quite easy to fine adjust one of them to match the profile exactly (offering it up etc) but not easy to match the other one by hand and eye so that they both cut the same.
The traditional tried and tested solution is to have just one cutting and the other as close as possible but effectively just balancing, not cutting, or perhaps just cutting a bit.
You might get the hang of it eventually Roger, if you did a bit more spindle work, payed more attention and stopped playing with yourself on the back row.

 

[RogerS]

.... Personally I think they are expensive and sometimes not as precise copies as you'd expect.

....They don't have to match exactly and it's OK (within reason) to have just one cutter cutting and the other balancing

Make your mind up, sunshine.

You haven't understood what I was saying Roger, as usual.
Copy machined cutters should be identical to each other, but are sometimes not quite spot on with the sample moulding being copied. It's quite easy to fine adjust one of them to match the profile exactly (offering it up etc) but not easy to match the other one by hand and eye so that they both cut the same.
The traditional tried and tested solution is to have just one cutting and the other as close as possible but effectively just balancing, not cutting, or perhaps just cutting a bit.
You might get the hang of it eventually Roger, if you did a bit more spindle work, payed more attention and stopped playing with yourself on the back row.

Spare us the puerile ad hominem attacks. Adds nothing to the discussion.

I'd be very interested to hear what Whitehill have to say about your whacky theory regarding machined cutters.

 

[blackrodd]

As part of my trade, I was taught making spindle moulder cutters from hss steel, which came in various lengths and widths, this was supplied by Drabble and sanders.
They supplied our 30" and 24" planer, thicknesser blade steel, which were ground on a hand fed slide , gently!
The spindle moulder cutters were cut, and made, free hand, to the profile and then the cutting bevel. again freehand, was ground. All the machinists were taught this and a year in the saw doctors.
Whilst grinding, the cutter was frequently dipped in the water trough between the grinding wheels, this was to ensure that you didn't burn the steel or you're fingers.
It is possible to make a pair in this way that looked, to the human eye, to be a perfect match, which is good enough for me!
We sometimes stacked whitehill cutter blocks, a 6" cove cutter had a 2" block at the bottom bed height, then 2" spacers, then another 2" block above.
All in with whitehills recomendations on safety,etc
Sometimes, we would plane up lengths of 8"x 6", mould the edges and cut the sides off, on top of the planer and back on the spindle for the top and bottom bevels.
As mentioned not all cutters were made in pairs especially for a couple of lengths, we would pick a "mate" and just have one doing the work, the cutter sharpness and feed speed coupled with decent joinery quality softwoods or good Quality hardwoods.
we supplied part and complete shopfronts, Building societies, banks, that were listed. Windows in Arligton Court, etc.
And my one claim to fame will be moulding the knave column's, in english oak, for Exeter cathedral Had to take the planer out of the shop, it was in the way, and took 10 men to carry, lift and feed on the spindle.

I use a false fence very frequently, helps stop breaking out, so less saw/wobble saw passes and planting a packing piece or pieces to replace material removed, and keep the workpiece stable.
As with the overhand planer, NEVER,NEVER pass you're hands over the cutter blocks, then it's nigh on impossible to come to grief. I never had a power feed for safety, or otherwise, Always mould the biggest piece of wood, then cut it off, whenever possible etc.
Think the safest, easiest way and keep those pinkies away.
In the days before the americans, followed by other's, created the need for push sticks and pushing blocks etc when you just shouldn't be pushing towards or anywhere near the cutter blocks on planers or spindle's. I think the Shaw guard is the best safety feature on the spindle, and it also keeps the workpiece in place Safely.
Just look at their saw bench practices, no crown guard and no riving knife, every one an accident waiting to happen.
Please excuse those amongst us who served a 5 year apprenticeship on wood working machinery, we were taught safety all day, everyday, Then you really start to learn, on you're own, out of apprenticeship and supposed to know what you are about!
So please be ready to be spending a year perfecting you're cutter making skills and invest at least another year using the saw bench, planer thicknesser and spindle moulder safely and changing the blades sucessfully etc
In the saw shop, I spent a happy year, making and sharpening planer irons, handsaws, 6' circular saws, 5" wide bandsaws up to 34' long with teeth up to 2 1/4" long. cut with a fly press, the joining ends taper ground and then draw filed over 2 1/2"-0" and brazed and then the fun of filing everything smooth, flat and a test run on the Stenner, looking for jumping, and hoping for close on perfect alignment, before swaging, side dressing and sharpening.
For those of you still awake, I'm going. Regards Rodders

 

[Jacob]

A....
For those of you still awake, I'm going. Regards Rodders

Still awake Rodders! Very interesting stuff.
I rate the power feed however - especially for small stuff - you can poke glazing bars through all day long - every one perfect and your fingers never nearer than 12" to the cutters. And I'm attached to me push sticks - particularly with shaw guards as you can poke the workpiece very close in and still be safe.

 

[Peter Sefton]

Great post Rodders.

I am not sure if Saw Doctors is still taught to any great extent, it seems like one of those trades that might go by the way side (which is a real shame)

With the enforcement of the limited cutter tooling, self grinding has become all the more difficult! Trying to match up two cutters and limiters within 1.1mm takes a fair old time and is catered for so well by the CNC machines.

I am a real advocate of the power feed and with updated regulations and advice last month I see the HSE are advising the use of the feed units as well.

We use it all the time in preference to the shaw guards and also use it with just one wheel for curved work in either the horizontal or vertical position.

This is an article I wrote three years ago and forms a part of our short wood machining course, which I put together to try and show some of the safe techniques and machine setting up for woodworkers.

http://www.peterseftonfurnitureschool.c ... rticle.pdf


Cheers Peter