Kitchen carcasses

[Random Orbital Bob]

Has anyone done a thorough WIP with pics on MFC kitchen carcass production? My basic question is, in general are they butt joined or housed/rebated?

I've built many cabinets over the years and I usually house any fixed shelves/bottom and rebate for the back (than glue n screw). Is this belt n braces? Does the industry just butt joint?

 

[undergroundhunter]

I personally would rebate and use either pocket hole screws or biscuits, makes for a stronger joint. It also will help keep everything square during construction.

Matt

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Thanks for that. So would I (do in fact) but what I'm trying to establish is what the industry generally does. Essentially I'm trying to understand whether or not doing it that way is over-engineering it compare to industry standard practice. Because I'm not "on the clock" and therefore time isn't money, I have a tendency to go belt and braces. I may need to build some cabinets shortly and I'm trying to hone the design to be the most efficient.

There is another question....do we ever use face frames any more in the UK? I realise that since Euro style hinges became the fashion here it led to overlaying doors. Wondered if any kitchens still use face frames?

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

no-one??

 

[RogerBoyle]

Butt jointed is the normal method using a mix of cam and dowells, Dowells, Screws, Biscuits, Dominoes, pocket hole screws etc etc
go to almost any kitchen showroom and have a look for yourself

As for face frames they are very popular and there are as many different ways of construcing them as in the methods above LOL as is the choice of timber/materials

Roger

 

[paul saunders]

But join top rails, fixed shelves and bases. Groove or plant on back, assemble with comformat screws. Cutting MFC is best done with a saw fitted with a scribing blade or a sacrificial board, either way a sharp blade is needed to help stop the MFC from chipping.

 

[No skills]

Been looking into this myself a lot of late (future kitchen build), as mentioned most is butt jointed with something used for location (dowel, domino etc) and screws to hold it together. Pocket screws seem used when the cabinet side is exposed and not covered with a decorative panel.

Watched Norm's series of kitchen building and he used housing and rebates with glue and screws, his face frames were held on to cabinets with biscuits and glue - face frames were pocket screwed together.

If time and money (and patience!) were no object I'd go with the housings/rebate build style and end up with a bomb proof kitchen, but I have little of either so butt joints-biscuits and screws are the way for me.

FWIW

 

[fluffflinger]

I work in the industry so take it from me it's butt joints all the way but if you do build leave the back free to float so you can draw it forward if you need to hide anything ugly like pipework before fixing in place. Once in place fixed to each other, the wall and with a worktop fitted they don't move and really don't require the structural integrity that free needed in a free standing piece.

I do have to ask why waste valuable time and effort on building carcasses when you can buy whatever you need right off the shelf (unless you need something MTM or really want to) for probably what you'll pay in materials. Cutting MFC is fine but do you have a decent system for edge banding? If it was me I'd locate a good carcass manufacturer and buy cabinets with 2mm ABS edging to the front and have at it with the rest of the kitchen. I can probably give you the heads up on where to go relative to your area or call a few independent kitchen companies and they will tell you who's they use.

I'd put my efforts into the bits that matter, nice doors or go in frame and plant on a face frame for that traditional look. And yes in-frame kitchens are still popular.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Many thanks all.

That was useful Fluff. The advice of outsourcing the carcasses seems to be what the experienced folks are saying. My sense is that they're such a commodity now that there's very little if any cost saving to be made by self manufacture. I've not done a lot with edge-banding.....just the usual heat activated small scale stuff and I do tend to use natural wood primarily.

I think I'd go with a face frame anyway....I've made them before to edge book shelves and used pocket screws. Is there a Euro style hinge that cantilevers in such a way to allow a face frame?

Thanks again for the responses folks, its appreciated.

 

[No skills]

I saw euro hinges for face frames in a youtube vid the other day, might of been a blum item.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Mm..all the cabs Ive made to date have used Blum soft close hinges....bloody love them

 

[RogerBoyle]

I work in the industry so take it from me it's butt joints all the way but if you do build leave the back free to float so you can draw it forward if you need to hide anything ugly like pipework before fixing in place. Once in place fixed to each other, the wall and with a worktop fitted they don't move and really don't require the structural integrity that free needed in a free standing piece.

I do have to ask why waste valuable time and effort on building carcasses when you can buy whatever you need right off the shelf (unless you need something MTM or really want to) for probably what you'll pay in materials. Cutting MFC is fine but do you have a decent system for edge banding? If it was me I'd locate a good carcass manufacturer and buy cabinets with 2mm ABS edging to the front and have at it with the rest of the kitchen. I can probably give you the heads up on where to go relative to your area or call a few independent kitchen companies and they will tell you who's they use.

I'd put my efforts into the bits that matter, nice doors or go in frame and plant on a face frame for that traditional look. And yes in-frame kitchens are still popular.

I make my own and always have but I do it simply because

1. It works out much more cost effective for me but then I do have the kit for it
2. I have no waiting time for delivery
3. I get a complete kitchen with no missing parts
4. I have had nothing but poor service from any of the companys that I have asked to quote for on supply of units
5. I detest cam and dowel construction flat pack units
6. My units do not have a multitude of holes drilled inside them (for moving shelves, fitting drawer runners, swapping hinges to the other side etc etc)
7. And finally I enjoy it

Lol

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Well the funny thing is Roger...that was where I started with this post.....from the assumption I would do everything myself (I also have the necessary kit). That's why the thread was asking questions about the nature of the joinery...I didn't want to go belt and braces with dado's and rebates if but joints were all that's necessary. I have both domino and biscuit jointers so there wouldn't be any IKEA style flat pack going on have no fear.

My starting point was butt joint or not and face frame or not. I think it's pretty clear that the industrial side of this debate is basically "fast and simple" because that satisfies their drivers, ie customers, deadlines, profitability etc. On the other hand, a customer with a few quid will also want "special" so it's nice to see face frames still widely used.

The one point you raise that seems to be a little contradicted by the industrial side is cost. You say you can make carcasses for less then outsourcing it? I also naturally assumed at the start of this that would hold true (you're not funding someone elses labour plus bigger firms have economies of scale in material purchase). But the pro's seem to be suggesting that's not necessarily the case?

So I'm a little confused at the cost differences in self build versus have it done outside. When I've built mdf carcasses just for garage use....you're talking way cheaper than its possible to buy. That includes raised panel doors, blum hinges and a paint finish. So I must say I'm a little sceptical that outsourcing it can be done cheaper than if you did it yourself.

 

[RogerBoyle]

Bob
My situation is simple I get a good deal from my suppliers Better than some one that does this on an as and when basis but not as good as some of the big boys for obvious reasons I usually get through around 20 - 30 boards a month although I have been known to get upto 50-60 LOL if doing bedrooms
My main advantage is that I do not have anywhere near the same overheads or running costs (especially wastage) as them so I can work to tighter profit margins than they can..

HTH

Roger

 

[tomatwark]

Bob

Like Roger I make my own carcasses, either with MFC, birch ply, or veneered board depending on what the customer wants.

I biscuit and pocket screw mine as I think it gives you a stronger unit, I also pocket screw, biscuit and glue my face frames on as well.

This gives me a nice square rigid unit which makes fitting the door a simple exercise ( I use butt hinges on my kitchens )

The main reason I do it is I have control and if for some reason the customer alters things or a 4" waste pipe suddenly appears when you come to fit it is easy to alter or make another unit without having to beg you carcase supplier to make a single unit to match as I always make sure I have a bit extra material.

At the end of the day if you are thinking of going down the bespoke kitchen route you are not competing with the likes of Howdens anyway, so if it costs a few pounds more to make the units yourself as serious customer will pay it.

Tom

 

[RogerBoyle]

Bob

Like Roger I make my own carcasses, either with MFC, birch ply, or veneered board depending on what the customer wants.

I biscuit and pocket screw mine as I think it gives you a stronger unit, I also pocket screw, biscuit and glue my face frames on as well.

This gives me a nice square rigid unit which makes fitting the door a simple exercise ( I use butt hinges on my kitchens )

The main reason I do it is I have control and if for some reason the customer alters things or a 4" waste pipe suddenly appears when you come to fit it is easy to alter or make another unit without having to beg you carcase supplier to make a single unit to match as I always make sure I have a bit extra material.

At the end of the day if you are thinking of going down the bespoke kitchen route you are not competing with the likes of Howdens anyway, so if it costs a few pounds more to make the units yourself as serious customer will pay it.

Tom

thats exactly what i was trying to say LOL

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Thanks guys. I have to say I'm kind of with you too (Roger and Tom). I think it's more to do with control than cost the more I think about it. By retaining the carcass build you have all the flexibility you can ever want.

But thanks to every one who contributed, I now have a really good perspective on how fancy people are prepared to go with the joinery (which appears to be as unfancy as you can get almost). Any additional "fancying up" is down to personal choice but given the joinery remains hidden, I guess as long as it's structurally sound its a bit of a waste doing anything more.

Better to spend time dovetailing drawer boxes and raising/fielding panels than worry about the carcasses.

 

[fluffflinger]

I agree that it is nice to be able to complete all elements of a project but unless you are equipped it's difficult to build carcasses quickly and efficiently or dare I say it as well as a "good" manufacturer.

Companies do vary in quality and delivery times but our current supplier builds us superb 2mm edged rigid carcasses (no flat pack here I can assure you) with only as many holes as we require

As a company we also choose to have them fit our drawer boxes and wirework as they charge so little to do so and it speeds our installations considerably. Our supplier was set up by an independent guy who was totally disillusioned by what he could buy in so he chose to do set up and do it himself. Consequently everything is built from the perspective of ease of fitting and therefore offer far far more than just a square ish box which resembles a bit of Swiss Cheese. You should see the oddments they have built for us over the last year or so. Hence backs that are floating, parts only machined with enough holes to accept the required hardware etc ect. having said that we have dealt with some really rubbish firm too. #-o

As to cost in a commercial environment it's also about what price you put on your own time.

Whatever route you choose I wish you luck and feel free to get in touch if you think I could help. Don't overlook good design and layout from both an aesthetic and functional perspective. You can produce the best built carcasses and doors in the world but getting the layout just so is an exacting process (which I love) and it can make or break a good kitchen.

Whatever have fun!!!

 

[RogerBoyle]

good post and advice

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Again my thanks to all. I'm one of those people who really values other peoples experience and I try to not make the same mistake twice even when someone else made it (if that makes any sense). I therefore am always grateful when people are prepared to share their experience. This thread will help me go in the right direction with additional confidence.