Mortice chisels

[chaoticbob]

I've been chopping mortices using the Paul Sellars method with ordinary chisels - I don't get quite as neat a result as he does for some strange reason :?
I've been looking at proper mortice chisels on the Axi site - there's quite a price spread, eg for a half inch chisel it's £11.50 for Axi Rider, £40 for Kirschen, 60 for a LN. Am I going to notice the difference as a learner?
Regards, Robin

 

[marcros]

My 2p worth... Treat yourself to a pig sticker type from eBay and give it a go. I much prefer them and they are generally not much money.

 

[D_W]

Ditto that. Look for clean pigstickers that aren't covered with pitting, and that have a nice taper from bottom to top (so they don't stick easily in a mortise). Mortising will be far faster than it would be with the small sash mortise chisels, and no less neat when you're done.

 

[AJB Temple]

Horses for courses. My experience:

If I am cutting green oak - e.g. large mortice slots in timber frames, then after rough machining to clean to most of the waste I tend to turn to an old Ward one and a half inch chisel for the sides and a big pig sticker for end grain and corners. The pig stickers tend to have quite a bit of heft to them and the steel is generally good. I bought all of my old chisels as job lots on eBay and typically paid an average of £2 each. All of them were returned dt serviceable condition in short order on a Sorby pro belt sharpener. (You can't beat having a sharp belt).

However I find the pig stickers rather unwieldy for finer work in seasoned smaller section timbers. At the cost effective end of the market I tried Narex. These are about £15 each and they are fine, but somewhat unrefined. The handles are not fantastic. I also tried Robert Sorby (ex eBay as part of a job lot of stuff) and they are fine.

I treated myself to a set of LN socket chisels, both mortice and bevel, and for fine work I think they are excellent. Very well finished blades and sockets, and comfortable high quality handles. Some people say that Veritas or others do better steel, but my experience of the LN is they have good edge retention and are easy to sharpen and give a good feel in the hand. LN do a wide range including some small and delicate chisels and they are very good and consistent quality. I would be indifferent between Veritas and LN and satisfied with either.

For a step above that you are into Blue Spruce territory and there you are really paying for a superior finish.

If you like fine tools that will last a lifetime, the LN or Veritas will do that. If you want good steel and good value then Narex are fine. I would pick up some old chisels off eBay anyway, as you never know when you need to abuse one and they are so cheap you have nothing to lose as long as you have a grinder or some such to refresh the bevels.

There are also some very cost effective sets of Japanese chisels around (and some super expensive ones as well). I like these as well and although they are designed to be hammer struck, they can be very effective. Usually Hitachi No 1 or 2 steel and hollow ground backs. Different shape to western style chisels but no less effective.

So - a chisel is a chisel is a chisel. They are all flat bars of metal with a sharp edge. Some are nicer to use than others and you should just try a few different ones and see what you like.

 

[undergroundhunter]

The mortice chisels I tend to use the most are my vintage sash mortice chisels by Marpels and Sorby. I do have some pig stickers but sometimes they feel a little bulky.

Matt

 

[ED65]

I've been chopping mortices using the Paul Sellars method with ordinary chisels - I don't get quite as neat a result as he does for some strange reason :?

How good are your edges? And are you maintaining the chisel's edge during a longer session of chopping?

Couple of not-so-random thoughts....

Have you compared results drilling out the majority of the waste and then paring out the remainder? Nothing at all wrong with the method Sellers demonstrates (not his method if you get my meaning) but you should try the other way and see how you like it. You might find you prefer to chop them in some woods and the other way in others. I think it's worth trying drilling and paring now in case you have to make use of that method for oversize mortises at some point in the future.

Highly recommend getting a pigsticker or two and trying them out for yourself; as a purpose-made tool they do offer some clear advantages for chopping mortises the traditional way so I think everyone should try them at some point. And as you're in the UK you should be able to acquire a good one for little money, an opportunity not to be wasted IMB.

 

[Jacob]

Ey up Bob. Pop up here I can lend you a mortice chisel or two.
A lot of the new so-called mortice chisels are no good as they are not trapezoid in cross section. This is an essential feature and makes them work much better. I thought LN had got it wrong - they might have caught up by now, but too pricey anyway.

The Axi rider claims - "Tapered cross section prevents chisel binding in deep mortices" - so maybe they have been following the message boards and picking up a few tips?

cheers

Jacob

 

[AJB Temple]

The LN ones don't bind in the mortices Jacob. My current set are a year old and are fine. Like a lot of people I expect I have acquired far too many chisels over the years(given some, inherited some, bought some). Good steel makes all the difference. Apart from my big 3" and 4" slicks, the ones I use most at the moment on timber framing, are old Ward (lovely steel) and some huge pig stickers of a make I can't remember.

 

[Jacob]

I've got parallel sided and they are not as easy to use as tapered. With a taper you lever it back a touch which widens the cut slightly and loosens the chisel very slightly when you lever it forwards. It's not much but every little helps if you've a lot to do!

 

[Argus]

I've been chopping mortices using the Paul Sellars method with ordinary chisels - I don't get quite as neat a result as he does for some strange reason :?

If you look at Seller's mortises, he uses his home made gauge to run a chisel down the sides when finished, then idividually matches each tenon to its own mortise. Even so, chopping deep mortises with a bevel edge chisel demands a hands-off attitude to levering deep chips because the things can break without warning - hence the short chisels available on the internet.

So-called pig stickers were intended for deep cuts and are beefy enough to give deep cuts some welly; added to which the rounded bevel sharpening effect allows you to pivot the heel on the side of the mortise.

Jacob's right about the trapezoidal effect - it reduces friction drastically and makes for much easier work.... some of my very old piggies are also very slightly tapered in length which indicates a preference in the old chippies (framers, really) who bought them that way for something that cut quickly and without fuss.

..... but it boils down to what you make. Big framing chisels may be a bit oversized for small furniture.

 

[Jacob]

I was taught that you don't lever anything with through mortices and a only a touch with blind.
You just keep the tool vertical all the time (except for very slight tilt to free it after each blow) and the chippings just fly out or get pushed through at the end.
Blind mortices the same except you need to get into the corners and lever - which is where the rounded bevel come into use.

 

[Trafalgar]

Jacob is right -- there's nothing to lever, really, except perhaps for loose chips and that doesn't require a huge chunk of steel. If you're levering and encountering a lot of resistance you are trying to lever beyond (to far in front of, or too far below) where the chisel has actually made a cut, and this is incorrect IMO. It's much easier to cut a mortise than it is to bludgeon one. The word chopping, itself, is more a misnomer than anything.

Paul Sellers' original YouTube video was in response to a video posted by Peter Follansbee who demonstrated chopping a mortise with a traditional pigsticker. To fully appreciate the contrast you need to watch both. Sellers' video using plain Blue Chips looked effortless compared to Follansbee's. The Blue Chip removed more material per blow, maybe half again as much, and it just all looked, and sounded, so much more controlled and efficient to my eyes and ears.

If your mallet arm and elbow hurt after cutting mortises then rest assured you're doing something wrong. If you're hitting the chisel as hard as you can, you're doing it wrong. Nothing in furnituremaking requires you hit, push, or pull anything as hard as a grown man is capable of. It's should require no more effort than grounding a carving, or really just setting in a carving. In fact with a bevel-edged chisel your biggest worry should be going too deep. They get to depth in a hurry.

 

[G S Haydon]

Proper pig sticker as Jacob has described. LN are sash mortise chisels. Fine if you make window sashes or do lot's of small shallow mortise work but you can pick up sash mortise chisels secondhand that look better suited than the LN. The LN's look like very odd and likely suited to only a very few people.

Just had a look at the Rider chisels. Look well suited to furniture work and pretty good value. I'd be interested to hear what they're like. In general the Rider chisels look like a Narex product with different branding.

 

[D_W]

Jacob is right -- there's nothing to lever, really, except perhaps for loose chips and that doesn't require a huge chunk of steel. If you're levering and encountering a lot of resistance you are trying to lever beyond (to far in front of, or too far below) where the chisel has actually made a cut, and this is incorrect IMO. It's much easier to cut a mortise than it is to bludgeon one. The word chopping, itself, is more a misnomer than anything.

Paul Sellers' original YouTube video was in response to a video posted by Peter Follansbee who demonstrated chopping a mortise with a traditional pigsticker. To fully appreciate the contrast you need to watch both. Sellers' video using plain Blue Chips looked effortless compared to Follansbee's. The Blue Chips removed more material per blow, maybe half again as much, and it just all looked, and sounded, so much more controlled and efficient to my eyes and ears.

I haven't experienced the same thing with bench chisels, but it may be because sellers is cutting a mortise that only has holding wood on one side (which is significantly different than cutting a mortise as we normally do).

I did find the bench chisels to require more grip on the handle to prevent twist.

Certainly can cut mortises with them, but the pigstickers I've used have hung easily with the bench chisels in a normal mortise, and they leave cleaner sides (which probably doesn't matter) with twisting. I've never had one that looks like a telephone pole that paul uses, and he made a strange comment on the RI chisels that's quoted on the TFWW website. Something about the RI pigstickers being the best chisels he's ever used or some other such thing.

For a smaller profile, someone living in England and buying firmers with flat sides for 2 pounds each will be further ahead.

 

[Trafalgar]

Sellers arranged his demonstration to match Follansbee's exactly, with the acrylic (glass or whatever) on one side so the viewer could see what the chisel was doing. It's an apples-to-apples comparison.

Follansbee: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1bo6NVYCc0

Sellers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_NXq7_TILA

The plain Blue Chip kicks tail. And the mortise walls are smoother, likely due to the arrises of the Blue Chips being sharper (leave 'em sharp!) and scraping the walls clean as he levers each section of material out of the mortise.

The speed and ease aspect is as simple and understandable as driving a thick wedge vs. a thin one.

 

[chaoticbob]

Thanks for all the advice - though some of the later discussion was over my head, I have read all and shall inwardly digest.

An ebay search on pig stickers yeilded this

amongst other things, but the actual chisels seemed a bit pricey - certainly nowt there for 2 quid or so.
I'll get a couple of the Axi Rider things, I have a possibly unreasonable prejudice against the brand because I bought a plane which wasn't so good as an ancient ten quid Record from an 'antique' shop.
I don't think I have any problem with sharpening steel - or maybe I do :twisted: . Discuss.

Jacob - thanks for your kind offer, I'll drop by when the Rider chisels have arrived, and see what you think of them.
Regards, Robin

 

[D_W]

Sellers arranged his demonstration to match Follansbee's exactly, with the acrylic (glass or whatever) on one side so the viewer could see what the chisel was doing. It's an apples-to-apples comparison.

Follansbee: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1bo6NVYCc0

Sellers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_NXq7_TILA

The plain Blue Chip kicks tail. And the mortise walls are smoother, likely due to the arrises of the Blue Chips being sharper (leave 'em sharp!) and scraping the walls clean as he levers each section of material out of the mortise.

The speed and ease aspect is as simple and understandable as driving a thick wedge vs. a thin one.

I guess the people who made a living doing those had no clue. The pigstickers must've been for people chopping telephone poles.

Maybe some days, Paul Sellers has no idea what's going on. Must've been this day:

"The best chisel I have ever used." - Paul Sellers

https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/sto ... MS-MORT.XX

 

[D_W]

Thanks for all the advice - though some of the later discussion was over my head, I have read all and shall inwardly digest.

An ebay search on pig stickers yeilded this

amongst other things, but the actual chisels seemed a bit pricey - certainly nowt there for 2 quid or so.
I'll get a couple of the Axi Rider things, I have a possibly unreasonable prejudice against the brand because I bought a plane which wasn't so good as an ancient ten quid Record from an 'antique' shop.
I don't think I have any problem with sharpening steel - or maybe I do :twisted: . Discuss.

Jacob - thanks for your kind offer, I'll drop by when the Rider chisels have arrived, and see what you think of them.
Regards, Robin

They won't be 2 quid on ebay, they'll be that on the street. Of course, it's hard to find what you're looking for at random sales.

I don't know anything about the chisels you're buying, but I'm sure they'll cut a mortise. Get familiar with them and use them. If they seem to have a shortcoming, you can certainly bring it up.

I'll bet they'll last better than my miyanaga chisel on another thread.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

When I began bashing out mortices about 25 years ago, this was with firmer chisels. They were thick blades and 30 degree bevels. They were hard work - limited penetration of the wood, and hard to pry the waste away.

Three Woodcock firmers on the left ..

I heard about Oval Bolstered Mortice Chisels (aka pigstickers) and bought a few vintage chisels. The early ones were discarded and eventually replaced with long blades. As Jacob reminded us, the tapered sides aid in preventing these blades getting stuck in the mortice. Wonderful chisels and a clear step up from the firmers.

The journey continued when Ray Iles brought out their version in D2 steel. There is a lot of hype about how this steel lasts forever. Well, it is true that they last much longer than the laminated steel of the vintage Wards I have, however this is only really relevant if you are working very hard and abrasive woods. The Wards (among others I have) do a great job and will last through several mortices before one needs to rehone. The RI just last longer. More relevantly, they are beautifully made, and the blades are long. The problem these days is finding good quality vintage mortice chisels.

Here is a 1/4" RI flanked by a couple of Wards ...

So several more years go by and about a year or so ago I began testing blades for Lee Valley, and then testing handles as well. Their mortice chisels have the size and heft of an oval bolstered type along with the appearance of a sash mortice chisel. I cannot really comment about the handles, since the ones I have are pre-production and larger than the production (they are fine for my large mitts but I recommended that they be made smaller for the production version). The blades, however, warrant a closer look. They are superior to the vintage and RI versions. Like the others, they have trapezoid sides. The steel is either A2 or PM-V11. Frankly, I chopped metres and metres of mortices, and my arms gave out before the A2 steel did. The PM-V11 would last even longer. As I pointed out earlier, the laminated vintage steel did the job ("good enough"). The A2 (which is also what LN use) is better. The PM is better still, but is it necessary? Still, that is not the best thing about these blades. They are fuller/deeper at the pointy end, and this creates more control (this is the important point) and better leverage .... I do not lever much, but eventually one does need to lever, and then they are better at this.

RI, Ward, Veritas ...

The gap between the vintage OBM chisels and the Veritas is not huge. If looking to save bucks, find a couple of vintage chisels. If you have the bucks to spend, either the RI or Veritas will make you happy, the Veritas a little more so .. but only if used them side-by-side. I think good/bad chopping technique could make a greater difference than the physical side of these chisels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[undergroundhunter]

Thanks for all the advice - though some of the later discussion was over my head, I have read all and shall inwardly digest.

An ebay search on pig stickers yeilded this

amongst other things, but the actual chisels seemed a bit pricey - certainly nowt there for 2 quid or so.
I'll get a couple of the Axi Rider things, I have a possibly unreasonable prejudice against the brand because I bought a plane which wasn't so good as an ancient ten quid Record from an 'antique' shop.
I don't think I have any problem with sharpening steel - or maybe I do :twisted: . Discuss.

Jacob - thanks for your kind offer, I'll drop by when the Rider chisels have arrived, and see what you think of them.
Regards, Robin

They won't be 2 quid on ebay, they'll be that on the street. Of course, it's hard to find what you're looking for at random sales.

I don't know anything about the chisels you're buying, but I'm sure they'll cut a mortise. Get familiar with them and use them. If they seem to have a shortcoming, you can certainly bring it up.

I'll bet they'll last better than my miyanaga chisel on another thread.

From all the things I have read and seen Paul isnt keen on pig stickers for furniture work, he seems to prefer the bevel edged chisel as most people know. It would be interesting to know where TFWW got this quote from and if this was the full quote or is this an edited version, I will be seeing Paul at the weekend I will try to remember to ask him.

Matt