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Vann
Furniture Maker
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 266
Location: Petone, New Zealand
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| Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:17 pm Post subject: Stanley No.78 Rebate Plane |
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I acquired two old Stanley #78 rebate planes some months ago. I tidied one up and sharpened the iron.
Today I used it in ernest for the first time, rebating some wooden trim - instead of getting out the tailed router.
I got good results (and a blister on my fore-finger), but one thing I'm not happy about is the way the iron sits when the lever-cap is tightened. At the mouth of the plane is a seat for the iron, around ½" wide. The rest of the length of the iron hangs in thin air supported only by the depth adjuster. The cap iron contacts the iron near the mouth (obviously) and at the thumbscrew, which is a little above the depth adjuster. When the screw is tightened it causes the iron to bend. I found that in order to prevent the iron from being driven back into the plane (by cutting forces) I had to tighten down the lever-cap quite tightly - resulting in quite a bow in the iron.
Before putting pen to paper (err... fingers to keyboard maybe) I tried putting the iron in the bullnose position - which doesn't have an adjuster. Here I found the iron tilted back a little when tightened, pivoting around the top end of the ½" wide seat and thereby lifting away from the seat, at the mouth - where it needs support the most if chatter is to be avoided.
A simple engineering solution would be to scrape off a little paint and epoxy a ~1.5mm thick metal shim to the plane body in the area behind the lever-cap tighening screw (I think jim used a £2 coin on his galoot 110 rebuild). However, it seems surprising that such a poor design was perpetuated for so many years - or am I doing something wrong?
To summarise what has become a long and verbose post:-
-In the normal position the iron is unsupported at the top end and bends when tightened.
-In the bullnose position the iron rocks near the bottom seat and tilts off the seat when tightened.
I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed this poor seating (in either position).
Cheers, Vann
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bugbear
Master Cabinetmaker
Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 3782
Location: North Suffolk
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| Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: Stanley No.78 Rebate Plane |
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| Vann wrote: | I acquired two old Stanley #78 rebate planes some months ago. I tidied one up and sharpened the iron.
Today I used it in ernest for the first time, rebating some wooden trim - instead of getting out the tailed router.
I got good results (and a blister on my fore-finger), but one thing I'm not happy about is the way the iron sits when the lever-cap is tightened. At the mouth of the plane is a seat for the iron, around ½" wide. The rest of the length of the iron hangs in thin air supported only by the depth adjuster. The cap iron contacts the iron near the mouth (obviously) and at the thumbscrew, which is a little above the depth adjuster. When the screw is tightened it causes the iron to bend. I found that in order to prevent the iron from being driven back into the plane (by cutting forces) I had to tighten down the lever-cap quite tightly - resulting in quite a bow in the iron.
Before putting pen to paper (err... fingers to keyboard maybe) I tried putting the iron in the bullnose position - which doesn't have an adjuster. Here I found the iron tilted back a little when tightened, pivoting around the top end of the ½" wide seat and thereby lifting away from the seat, at the mouth - where it needs support the most if chatter is to be avoided.
A simple engineering solution would be to scrape off a little paint and epoxy a ~1.5mm thick metal shim to the plane body in the area behind the lever-cap tighening screw (I think jim used a £2 coin on his galoot 110 rebuild). However, it seems surprising that such a poor design was perpetuated for so many years - or am I doing something wrong?
To summarise what has become a long and verbose post:-
-In the normal position the iron is unsupported at the top end and bends when tightened.
-In the bullnose position the iron rocks near the bottom seat and tilts off the seat when tightened.
I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed this poor seating (in either position).
Cheers, Vann |
As long as the iron is well engaged to the bed near the cutting edge, very little else matters. I mean, yes, it's ugly, but it doesn't matter.
One old trick for slightly opening the shaving aperture of a new plane was to put a leather shim at the top of the bed, pushing the blade out a little. The blade then pivoted on the arris of the bevel, opening the shaving aperture a little. (*)
Of course, having done this, the blade is only touch the bed at the bevel-arris and the leather shim!
BugBear
(*) this is, of course, preferable to irreversibly filing the mouth open
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mr grimsdale
Furniture Maker
Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Posts: 365
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| Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| Vann wrote: | I acquired two old Stanley #78 rebate planes some months ago. I tidied one up and sharpened the iron.
Today I used it in ernest for the first time, rebating some wooden trim - instead of getting out the tailed router.
I got good results (and a blister on my fore-finger), but one thing I'm not happy about is the way the iron sits when the lever-cap is tightened. At the mouth of the plane is a seat for the iron, around ½" wide. The rest of the length of the iron hangs in thin air supported only by the depth adjuster. The cap iron contacts the iron near the mouth (obviously) and at the thumbscrew, which is a little above the depth adjuster. When the screw is tightened it causes the iron to bend. I found that in order to prevent the iron from being driven back into the plane (by cutting forces) I had to tighten down the lever-cap quite tightly - resulting in quite a bow in the iron. |
That's how it's supposed to work. The cap iron pins the blade at two points - under the cap screw and flat against the back of the mouth. The idea is to pin the blade very tight at the edge - just loose enough to allow for adjustment with the lever, which should be a stiff action.
In fact that's how most planes work, with variations. The cap iron and/or wedge, lever iron etc all transmit pressure to just behind the edge itself and should be as tight as practicable, and may bend the blade in the process.
The 78 is an excellent tool - I use it a lot.
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Vann
Furniture Maker
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 266
Location: Petone, New Zealand
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| Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| bugbear wrote: | | As long as the iron is well engaged to the bed near the cutting edge, very little else matters. I mean, yes, it's ugly, but it doesn't matter. |
Okay, so the iron doesn't seem to have taken a permanent bend (i.e. it straightens out when the lever-cap is loosened off), so I guess that's okay. However when in the bullnose position the cutting edge of the iron does lift off the bed, so a leather shim might be worth investigation. Not that I've used it in the bullnose position yet.
| mr grimsdale wrote: | In fact that's how most planes work, with variations. The cap iron and/or wedge, lever iron etc all transmit pressure to just behind the edge itself and should be as tight as practicable, and may bend the blade in the process.
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Except that most planes hold the iron against a flat frog - i.e. the iron is supported as close as possible to the mouth and in the area where the lever-cap cam applies pressure. In the case of the #78 (my #78 anyway) the iron hangs above any support where the lever cap screw applies pressure.
In most bench planes, pressure at the two points may cause a very slight bow in the iron (hence the beauty of the Record/Clifton two-piece cap iron which supports at three points), but when lever-cap pressure is applied, my #78 iron bends about 1/8" out-of-line at the top end.
Thanks for your comments anyway.
Cheers, Vann.
I did some more rabbeting today, and aggravated my blister (ouch!) 
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mr grimsdale
Furniture Maker
Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Posts: 365
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| Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Vann wrote: | | bugbear wrote: | | As long as the iron is well engaged to the bed near the cutting edge, very little else matters. I mean, yes, it's ugly, but it doesn't matter. |
Okay, so the iron doesn't seem to have taken a permanent bend (i.e. it straightens out when the lever-cap is loosened off), so I guess that's okay. However when in the bullnose position the cutting edge of the iron does lift off the bed, so a leather shim might be worth investigation. Not that I've used it in the bullnose position yet.
| mr grimsdale wrote: | In fact that's how most planes work, with variations. The cap iron and/or wedge, lever iron etc all transmit pressure to just behind the edge itself and should be as tight as practicable, and may bend the blade in the process.
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Except that most planes hold the iron against a flat frog - i.e. the iron is supported as close as possible to the mouth and in the area where the lever-cap cam applies pressure. In the case of the #78 (my #78 anyway) the iron hangs above any support where the lever cap screw applies pressure.
In most bench planes, pressure at the two points may cause a very slight bow in the iron (hence the beauty of the Record/Clifton two-piece cap iron which supports at three points), but when lever-cap pressure is applied, my #78 iron bends about 1/8" out-of-line at the top end. |
The 78 has a flat 'frog' too, but only 10mm long, behind the edge. That's all it needs, as BB says above.
On a long frog the pressure on the blade is still in the same 2 places - under the screw or lever cam and under the end of the cap/lever iron
Mine bends abt 0.5mm so maybe yours does need a bit of packing though I don't suppose performance would be affected either way
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mr grimsdale
Furniture Maker
Joined: 25 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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Just had a closer look at mine.
I wonder if your probs are due to having the cap iron too low and close to the blade? It should be well lifted so that the pressure is 1. very close to the edge and 2. under the cap iron screw, with the cap iron pivoting under the hold down screw in the middle. The bullnose position is OK on mine in spite of slight bend in the blade.
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Benchwayze
Master Cabinetmaker
Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 3207
Location: In Brymincham, an 'olde-worlde' address befitting a furnituremaker
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| Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:43 am Post subject: |
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Hi Vann,
I am mystified as to what caused the blister ...
John 
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