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 Post subject: Re: Record T5?
PostPosted: 15 Jul 2017, 21:13 
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deema wrote:
If your jointing two boards together you don't need a shooting board. The easiest and simplest solution irrespective of your planing ability is to lay the boards down face up and then fold them up together like a book. The edge on the bench is the edge to be planned. Clamp the two boards as they are and now and plane the edge. If you don't plane square, it doesn't matter, when the boards are put together any angular error is cancelled out as each board is a mirror image of the other in terms of the angle planed on the edge. Perfect joints every time!


True enough, it's a useful trick to have in your armoury. But it's still not the all purpose, silver bullet solution.

It can be awkward to cramp the boards together, cramping the centre on long boards needs some ingenuity and even the most minute cupping or bowing can spring the top edges apart. The system only works if any inaccuracy is completely consistent from end to end, but for a beginner that's difficult to achieve as they'll generally wander from side to side, so the camber on their iron will give them a high spot on the left in some places, and on the right in other places. And then there's the problem that the two ganged up edges may not plane fair in the same direction.

I agree it's a useful technique, but there are still times when it won't get you to where you need to be.


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 Post subject: Re: Record T5?
PostPosted: 15 Jul 2017, 22:18 
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No indeed, nothing is idiot proof in handtool woodworking. Skills take time to learn.


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 Post subject: Re: Record T5?
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2017, 06:18 
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Btw. I know where you are comming from. On my first real big project, the kitchen cabinets, I did all the panel glue ups with a long grain shooting board too. And yes that was painfull! I think I burned that shooting board....


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 Post subject: Re: Record T5?
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2017, 06:30 
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Custard is correct to a point If you use a cambered plane blade. A shooting plane should have a square blade with very little and preferably no camber. Movement of the plane laterally as the plane is used has little to no effect on the finished joint.


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 Post subject: Re: Record T5?
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2017, 08:32 
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Pete Maddex wrote:
You need to make one of these.

ImageShooting board miter attachment by Pete Maddex, on Flickr

Its a piece of plywood cut to fit the shape of the side of your plane a piece on the top with the hook, a couple of shaped pieces on the in side up against the frog and the web in front of the mouth to transfer the force.
Its much better than a glove.
I have some better pictures on Photobucket but I am not paying $399.99 a year to link them.

Pete


I thought you posted instructions on making these Pete?
I made one (took less than an hour) based on your photos and it works very well


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 Post subject: Re: Record T5?
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2017, 18:50 
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lurker wrote:
Pete Maddex wrote:
I have some better pictures on Photobucket but I am not paying $399.99 a year to link them.

Pete


I thought you posted instructions on making these Pete?
I made one (took less than an hour) based on your photos and it works very well


Yes but Photobucket want $399.99 so I can show you the pictures!

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 Post subject: Re: Record T5?
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2017, 06:09 
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Thanks all. I think I'll try making a wooden/ hot dog handle like that for the plane and a shooting board for long grain. I'll keep working on free-hand jointing too, it clearly feels much more ergonomic than the shooting board, but my results are pretty variable! Just out of interest, are these any help?
http://www.axminster.co.uk/veritas-jointer-fence-100583
Bit like stabilisers on a bike til I can get going in a straight line?


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 Post subject: Re: Record T5?
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2017, 06:17 
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I would think of the veritas tool as one for planing very long boards.
It sounds to me like you are using a straight iron/have not experienced the camber before
Tom


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 Post subject: Re: Record T5?
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2017, 06:39 
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Ok, thanks Tom.
The next thing I'm planning (a coffee table, my third 'thing') will need 1m long boards glued up. American white oak looks really nice and apparently it's good to work with - £90 planed and squared, £60 rough sawn incl wood for legs and apron. The T5/ shooting board question is about how I can 'efficiently' and effectively get and work rough sawn, but without buying more machinery. And it's not so much about the coffee table in particular as trying to establish a working method. At some point I'll probably crack and get a thicknesser/ planer or just buy the pre-machined wood!


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 Post subject: Re: Record T5?
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2017, 07:02 
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You will still need to plane the edges of your planed timber to get a good fit.

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 Post subject: Re: Record T5?
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2017, 07:06 
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Its no guarantee that pre machined timber will still be true..for many reasons
when it was machined, how it was stored, the difference in acclimating to your workshop, etc
You have a 51/2 that's really capable/preferable of quickly doing the job.
I suggest a reference surface will be a big boon if you don't have one allready.
Have you used a plane with a camber yet?
You could use that 20 quid to buy a plane or just a double iron and try it out.
I would lean towards another plane as it could be got for the same price, but it would take a bit more
waiting.
I do all my work with the 5 1/2 though ...I use a 4 for rough stuff stripping paint and such.
A long grain shooting board would not be suitable for thick stock like your table.

Do you plan on making more stuff like boxes with thin stock soon?
Might be another excuse to go on the bay for either a 5 or an iron ?
Tom


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 Post subject: Re: Record T5?
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2017, 07:21 
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I've not used a plane with a camber - and I'm not sure how I'd use it. I'll look into it today - I have an old No 4 with a spare blade which I could work on.
I'd read/ seen the need to plane wood that's machined, but reckon a really fine cut with the plane on wood that's nearly there is more manageable than sawn wood. If only because I'll be less exhausted and more able to focus...


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 Post subject: Re: Record T5?
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2017, 07:34 
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You will not go back
Incidentally, try edge planing that thin stock too, as you will find it easier ill bet,
You won't see a reflected cambered image on the wood surface which you imagine you will.
You might see an inkling on a wide surface, but not on thin stuff.
You can camber it more if you like later to surface that rough stuff, but you might just decide to
put a small camber the 5 1/2 for the job after trying. (assumption)
Have fun !


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 Post subject: Re: Record T5?
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2017, 12:38 
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Chris152 wrote:
I've not used a plane with a camber - and I'm not sure how I'd use it. I'll look into it today - I have an old No 4 with a spare blade which I could work on.
I'd read/ seen the need to plane wood that's machined, but reckon a really fine cut with the plane on wood that's nearly there is more manageable than sawn wood. If only because I'll be less exhausted and more able to focus...


I hate using my shooting board, but then it's probably not very well made (ought to have another go at it really). But one thing that makes a huge difference is the sharpness of the plane iron.

I only mention this because I struggled for many years (literally) untaught in the need for and ways of getting truly sharp edge tools. I'm still not brilliant at it, but a heck of a lot better since I happened on this forum!

I am NOT going to start another sharpening thread as such, but ask a rhetorical question: can you (ridiculously easily) dry-shave your forearm with the plane iron you're using? If not, it's unlikely to sharp enough for the task, and the result will be tiredness, grumpiness, and stuff that's not square, either. It's pretty demoralizing, and I can read that between the lines, I think.

As I said, no answer required, but if the suspected answer is the one that springs to mind, consider experimenting with Scary Sharp to get going, with a view to picking a favourite method ASAP (once you've been staggered by just how sharp you can actually get things).

I mention SS, because after a lot of failed attempts to get a good result with Norton stones, etc, it worked brilliantly for me first go. I suspect that one of the reasons it worked so well for me was that it let me 'go down the grits' in a very controlled way, thus guaranteeing I did it properly. FWIW Axminster have good quality wet+dry paper (Hermes), and that's advisable. I bought some cheap stuff from Toolstation at one point - big mistake and wasted money.

Yes my technique was rubbish, but I've got a Tormekalike wet grinder, Norton and old, excellent stones I've inherited, and umpteen jigs. Really, nothing actually worked consistently, and the consistency thing is important. SS made a lot of that irrelevant, and really, really encouraged me (sharpness = easier and more enjoyable woodworking). And although it probably has a high ongoing cost, it was relatively cheap to get going.

For goodness's sake, please don't turn this into a flame war! I'm just trying to help, because it worked for me when other approaches didn't. If I'd been taught properly, etc., etc., is all true, but hey.

E.

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 Post subject: Re: Record T5?
PostPosted: 18 Jul 2017, 07:05 
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That could be part of the issue, Eric. I read a lot online and went for wet and dry papers from Axminster on a veritas glass lapping plate - I have 800, 1200 and 24000 and polish with a strop I made, which seems to work fine. BUT - last time I was sharpening I noticed the dark trace left by the steel was uneven, which on reflection was caused by residues of sticky-back glue from the previous sheets on the plate. This would have meant it wasn't sharpening properly across the blade and I shouldn't have been so lazy. I guess in future some white spirit to clean the plate before applying the next sheet? But I do reckon I have a workable handle on sharpening now, in that the first couple of times I used the paper I could indeed shave my arm with the blade. I decided to stop checking on every sharpening in case I ran out of body hair.

So, yes, more attention to sharpening, but I still think I want to have a go at a long-grain shooting board, too. They cost so little and the end grain one only took 10 minutes to make, and is accurate - unlike my freehand edge planing much of the time.

Also, I recently asked for advice on cutting the wavy edge off a bit of oak worktop and considered a circular saw for the job - I wonder if one could be used for squaring the ends of board along the lines Custard suggested with a mitre saw, above? Maybe followed by very light sanding? A circular saw would have the advantage of not taking bench space except in use, and maybe could help with more jobs than a mitre saw.

edit - 2400!


Last edited by Chris152 on 18 Jul 2017, 07:49, edited 1 time in total.

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