Rebating with a combination plane

UKworkshop.co.uk

Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

AndyT

Established Member
Joined
24 Jul 2007
Messages
12,028
Reaction score
538
Location
Bristol
Over in a thread discussing the new Veritas combination plane, the question was raised of how practical combi planes are for rebating. Rather than widen that thread even more into a general discussion, I thought I'd do some experiments and discuss them in a separate thread. So here goes.

First out the box is a Record 050C from the 80s, with the blue plastic handle.

[A quick digression on models is useful here. The basic 70s/80s Record plough was the 044C. It had a single, square edged skate/body, a fence and no nickers. The 045C was the same, but with the skate chamfered and a nicker for cross-grain work. The 050C was a proper combination plane, having a chamfered body/skate, a second skate on a sliding section, a fence and two nickers. There was a conversion kit to make an 045C into an 050C, or you can do as I have and acquire some odd bits and fabricate others. ]

Here it is set up for rebating. Note that the sliding section skate (on the left) is very near the edge of the cutter. This distance is not adjustable, as the sliding section doubles up as a clamp to hold the cutter in place.

rebate01.jpg


I wanted the second skate to rest on the wood, to limit the depth of cut. So my only choice was to set the fence in line with the edge of the cutter, and get the full 12mm width.
This did not go well. In practice, the left hand side was unsupported and unrestrained, so it dived down into the wood, removing untidy chunks.

rebate02.jpg


I moved the fence out a little, so the second skate was properly on the wood. This was better, but what I was doing was actually ploughing a groove, so close to the edge that the little whiskers or extra wood mostly just crumbled away. You can see some here.

rebate03.jpg

rebate04.jpg


Next up, I tried the 044C. It's a simpler setup, with just the single, square edged skate. I set the fence to cover the edge of the cutter.

rebate06.jpg


This worked reasonably well. Not having the extra support forced me to concentrate on holding the plane upright and pressed well in to the work.

rebate09.jpg


I even managed to go back and widen my little rebate with the same cutter setting but the fence moved further out.

rebate10.jpg

rebate11.jpg


Next I tried an old Record 050. Like its newer version (the 050C) it has a chamfered skate on the body, a second one on a sliding section, and a fence which can be shifted over the edge. (As with the 050C, the sliding section is doubling up as the cutter clamp, so the position of the skate is fixed, very near the edge.)

rebate12.jpg


Maybe it was because I was getting used to the technique, but this worked ok too.

rebate13.jpg


On to the Record 405. On this plane, as with the Stanley 45, the cutter clamp is independent of the sliding section, so the second skate can be positioned wherever it is needed. This is essential when cutting asymmetrical mouldings but I found it was useful for a simple square rebate too. In this shot the fence is out of the way, for clarity

rebate14.jpg


but here it is overlapping the outside edge, giving easy control of the width of the rebate, while still leaving the second cutter in view, where it can help control the thickness of the shaving.

rebate16.jpg


Results were good, and the whole thing felt more certain and pleasant to handle. It didn't feel like a compromise.

rebate17.jpg

rebate18.jpg


Feeling thorough, and in the mood for spending time on this rather than all the other things I ought to be doing, I also pulled out the Stanley 55.

In this shot, it looks very similar to the 405 - you get the same independent positioning of the second skate.

rebate19.jpg


However, one of several disadvantages/features of the 55 is that the second skate is not fixed coplanar with the first one. Here you can see the long threaded adjuster (with the left handed thread) which raises and lowers it.

rebate20.jpg


Of course, you can try and make sure that you set it up and tighten the bits in position so they are one less thing to check, but there is a risk of slippage all the same. Consistency can't be found just by leaving bits off. (I should add that there is actually a third skate - the "auxiliary center bottom" as Stanley called it - which can fit between the other two. It has its uses on some of the more elaborate cutters, to avoid the "diving" problem I encountered back at the beginning of this post, but would only get in the way when rebating.)

I didn't really believe it until I bought one and tried it, but the amount of fiddling and setting up with the 55 is really a barrier to enjoying using it, if you just want to get on and cut a rebate.

In conclusion, let's remind ourselves of what Jacob has said so often - the simple Stanley / Record 78/078 is a good, robust plane. It has a fence and a depth stop to ensure that cuts are consistent. Off the shelf and off to work.

rebate21.jpg


rebate22.jpg


I'll leave unfenced planes and woodies for another day - this is an attempt to answer the question about combi planes being used for rebates.

Overall, it's a Yes. I have also confirmed my convictions that the 405 is a good, solid tool which stops short of needless overcomplexity and that any combination tool is a trade-off between performance and setup time.
 
AndyT":cxjg9dtq said:
......
In conclusion, let's remind ourselves of what Jacob has said so often - the simple Stanley / Record 78/078 is a good, robust plane. It has a fence and a depth stop to ensure that cuts are consistent. .....
Thanks for the credit!
I'd add - the fence and nicker are only for initial marking of the first pass and are best removed for the cut itself. I've always found the depth stop to be useless.
 
Jacob":1lu90odk said:
I'd add - the fence and nicker are only for initial marking of the first pass and are best removed for the cut itself. I've always found the depth stop to be useless.

No nickers were harmed in the making of that rebate and the depth stop is missing in action! :)
 
That was a brilliantly useful post Andy, thanks for taking the time and trouble. Oddly enough I acquired a Stanley combination from my brother at the weekend which belonged to our Father and have yet to examine or properly play with it. This thread is very timely for me.
 
I'd be interested in seeing what people can actually achieve with cross grain rebates and housings using these planes. I was impressed at how clean Derek's housings looked, whenever I've tried those jobs with combi planes I've had to spend quite a bit of time cleaning up the cut with side rebate planes or chisels to achieve the kind of job he seemed to get straight from the plane.
 
Thanks Andy T, good post. It's nice to know I'm not alone; I once tried rebating with my 050 (I can't remember why?) and it was a horrible experience. A 078 (or 778 in my case) is far better, although I struggle to take a substantial bite with mine. I seem to get the best results with a woody skew.
 
Andy

Are you posting images without resizing them? They are HUGE when the thread is opened, and all replies are difficult (as the sentences stretch across the page).

Custard, I have replied on the other thread to a comment you made here, just to keep the Combo details together.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
custard":qmhuzm9r said:
I'd be interested in seeing what people can actually achieve with cross grain rebates and housings using these planes. I was impressed at how clean Derek's housings looked, whenever I've tried those jobs with combi planes I've had to spend quite a bit of time cleaning up the cut with side rebate planes or chisels to achieve the kind of job he seemed to get straight from the plane.

I think I'd struggle to produce such neat cross-grain cuts as Derek showed with any of these planes. The older ones with the little stamped metal cloverleaf or teardrop nickers are not adjustable at all, and their performance will vary with wear and sharpenings.
I don't have a factory model Record 050C - the nickers on mine are home made, following the Record design as closely as I could. They adjust in depth, but don't have that neat little grubscrew lateral adjustment which looks a really good feature on the Veritas versions.

So my preference is the simple workaround of sawing housing sides first.

Alternatively, I do have a selection of wooden dado/housing planes, which all have dedicated double nickers accurately sized to suit their cutters, though again I would not want to rely on them for 'best' work, when I get back to doing some, rather than dabbling with experiments.
 
Andy

Are you posting images without resizing them? They are HUGE when the thread is opened, and all replies are difficult (as the sentences stretch across the page).

Custard, I have replied on the other thread to a comment you made here, just to keep the Combo details together.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Well, yes, but I wouldn't call them huge - only 2048 x 1536 in this thread. The forum software scales all images to 500 pixels wide, with a full size image available on mouse-click.
My images elsewhere are bigger - eg in this thread replacing-the-plastic-handles-on-record-044c-t107201.html they are 2592 x 1944.

They behave just like anyone else's in all available combinations of browser and operating system that I have available here. Is anyone else having similar problems?
 
As opposed to the Stanley 55, a good moving fillister does have a role in a commercial workshop. Maybe it should be called a moving PHillister as this one came from Philly Planes! The skewed iron and a slightly higher pitch means it can take speedily thick shavings even in figured timbers (this is an off-cut of Rippled Sycamore) without tearing out, and after just a bit of practise anyone can get the stroke angle right for consistently dead square rebates.

Moving-Fillister-01.jpg


But a properly set up moving fillister will also deal with end grain every bit as well, no spelching, and just as square,

Moving-Fillister-02.jpg


For short runs of through rebates it's quicker than setting up the router table, and for all practical purposes the results are just as clean. Another advantage is that you can leave the plane set until the job's done, so if you screw up a component later on it's easy to go back and remake it. On this particular board the first half of the long grain rebate was with the grain, but the grain then flips so it was finishing the cut against the grain.

Moving-Fillister-03.jpg


The down side is that the great majority of used moving fillisters that I see are pretty much clapped out, the fence screws are wrecked, the nicker iron is way off, the stock is warped, the depth setting is rattly and imprecise, etc, etc. I wonder if this is a tool that just naturally wears out fairly quickly?

Also, it's of course not a solution for stopped work or for housings. I've personally never encountered a plane that can do housings as cleanly as I'd want, which is why Derek's results are so impressive. Not that I'd use a hand plane for housings though, I still think that's an application where the advantage tips in favour of the powered plunge router.
 

Attachments

  • Moving-Fillister-01.jpg
    Moving-Fillister-01.jpg
    71 KB · Views: 1,316
  • Moving-Fillister-02.jpg
    Moving-Fillister-02.jpg
    77.2 KB · Views: 1,315
  • Moving-Fillister-03.jpg
    Moving-Fillister-03.jpg
    59.2 KB · Views: 1,315
AndyT":314l140a said:
Andy

Are you posting images without resizing them? They are HUGE when the thread is opened, and all replies are difficult (as the sentences stretch across the page).

Custard, I have replied on the other thread to a comment you made here, just to keep the Combo details together.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Well, yes, but I wouldn't call them huge - only 2048 x 1536 in this thread. The forum software scales all images to 500 pixels wide, with a full size image available on mouse-click.
My images elsewhere are bigger - eg in this thread replacing-the-plastic-handles-on-record-044c-t107201.html they are 2592 x 1944.

They behave just like anyone else's in all available combinations of browser and operating system that I have available here. Is anyone else having similar problems?

I had the same issue as Derek. They did go smaller when the brouser caught up, about a minute later.
 
Cross grain rebate no prob with a 78:
You'd start the cut with a sharp nicker in place to get a clean edge, perhaps a bit shorter than finished size, then remove nickers (and fence, depth stop) and carry on to the line, then turn the plane to clean up the edge back to the line previously nicked.
Or perhaps easier with a shoulder plane working to a cut line across the grain and a gauged line along the edge.
A very sharp rebate plane could do it too.
Either way the sash fillister offers no real advantage. Like so many gadgets they look a good idea but they are clumsy, slower, and nobody really needs them!
 
I've reduced all the pictures to 1024 x 768 - I hope this suits everyone and speeds things up for those on slow connections.
 
Jacob":166pq6ty said:
Cross grain rebate no prob with a 78:
You'd start the cut with a sharp nicker in place to get a clean edge, perhaps a bit shorter than finished size, then remove nickers (and fence, depth stop) and carry on to the line, then turn the plane to clean up the edge back to the line previously nicked.
Or perhaps easier with a shoulder plane working to a cut line across the grain and a gauged line along the edge.
A very sharp rebate plane could do it too.
Either way the sash fillister offers no real advantage. Like so many gadgets they look a good idea but they are clumsy, slower, and nobody really needs them!

I think you maybe mean 'moving fillister' - as in Swagman and Custard's photos. They seem to be getting good results from them!
A sash fillister is a specialist tool - and remained so for many many years until the introduction of steam power. Some more discussion here.

But I was hoping to keep this thread focussed on combination planes... :cry: :lol: :roll:

PS - I do agree that it is useful to be able to turn the plane 90 degrees and clean up the side of the rebate - not possible with a combi as the rods, depth stop etc would get in the way.
 
One runs the dado before trimming the panel to finished width. No reason to give a dung what the cut looks like at the ends. They get trimmed off. What's left is smooth as a baby's buttocks.

You have to understand the correct order of work when working with hand tools. If you find yourself cutting rebates and dadoes on workpieces that have been processed to finished width and length (as it applies) and even thickness, then you've quite simply mucked it up.

You only have to knife a dado once, or don't knife it at all, leave the stock a little over thickness and process to finished thickness after all the dadoes have been run. Run them slightly past depth to account for what you've left to get to finished thickness.

There unfortunately seems to be a persistent misunderstanding about the correct order of work when using hand tools for joinery and other operations besides simple four-squaring.
 
AndyT":3tw6a2wn said:
But I was hoping to keep this thread focussed on combination planes... :cry: :lol: :roll:

Just establishing a reference point Andy!

Because this is the result with a Stanley 55. So, exactly the same board of timber (except this time the grain is contrary for the first half, then fair thereafter), and the same person sharpening and setting the tool.

Stanley-55-Rebate.jpg


What a mess! Let's leave it there, I know from experience with this tool that cross grain planing will be even uglier.

I'm pretty sure this would have worked out okay-ish on some sweet grained softwood, but as soon as figured hardwoods with contrary grain enters the equation, the Stanley 55 (and maybe some other combi ploughs?) will really struggle. So I guess it's always worth planning your tool buying around the timbers you plan on using.
 

Attachments

  • Stanley-55-Rebate.jpg
    Stanley-55-Rebate.jpg
    67 KB · Views: 711
Back
Top