Counterfeit and 'Knock-off' Tools

[Mr_P]

Yipppeeee just bought a stunning Victorian dovetail saw on BIN for £20.

LMAO just doing some research on my new purchase and it turns out that it's possibly a
genuine Counterfeit and 'Knock-off' Tool.

Good chance that the firm never even made saws and they just had them stamped.

Will start a new thread when it arrives.

 

[Scouse]

It's misleading to not buy Chinese because of bad labour laws and human rights violations. The trouble with knocking China is that you need to apply it to all or none. By which I mean more or less every country, including the UK and USA, employ, directly or indirectly, workers in appalling conditions for little money, or outsourced work on the same terms. Have a read of 'No Logo' by Naomi Klein, then apply the boycot China logic to India, Indonesia, Vietnam, Taiwan, etc and you won't be able to wear clothes, shoes or aftershave again, and you may need to think twice before you eat or drink as well.

 

[bugbear]

I said 'government control', not 'government purchasing'. Two entirely different things. For the avoidance of doubt, that's 'government control OF the market' and not 'government purchasing IN the market'.

Sorry still puzzled. When has the woodwork tool market been affected by "government control, cartels, monopolies"?

It hasn't.

And nobody said it had. Strawman.

The statement was a general one about markets, followed by a specific statement about wood work tools.

I'll stick with 'often'. When cartels, monopolies or government control are involved, the market can't decide. Fortunately in the woodworking handtool market, those evils are minimal.

BugBear

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

It's misleading to not buy Chinese because of bad labour laws and human rights violations. The trouble with knocking China is that you need to apply it to all or none. By which I mean more or less every country, including the UK and USA, employ, directly or indirectly, workers in appalling conditions for little money, or outsourced work on the same terms. Have a read of 'No Logo' by Naomi Klein, then apply the boycot China logic to India, Indonesia, Vietnam, Taiwan, etc and you won't be able to wear clothes, shoes or aftershave again, and you may need to think twice before you eat or drink as well.

It is unfortunate truth that the height of industrial production in this country, the days of the sheffield steel/tool making, times which many of us hark back too (me included) was also the time of the most awful exploitation of the British working class. Consumer boycotts are all very well but it was the unionisation and organisation of the working class that tempered this. I once did a benefit gig for "No Sweat" an anti sweatshop pressure group. I was a bit worried about turning up in my £3 tesco jeans (I've always been a snappy dresser). A quick read of their literature however informed me that they believe that consumer boycotts mean very little and are more about making privileged westerners feel good about themselves. Their energies are put in to helping exploited third world workers organise at a local level to improve wages and conditions. After all if you have to work for a dollar a day you don't want the factory to shut down, you want to get 3 dollars or ten dollars a day. Western markets can absorb such small increases in the price of production.
As far as companies like LN, Clifton, or for that matter festool, who have to compete with chinese production, their only chance is to make better tools than the far eastern competition.

 

[Craigus]

It's misleading to not buy Chinese because of bad labour laws and human rights violations. The trouble with knocking China is that you need to apply it to all or none. By which I mean more or less every country, including the UK and USA, employ, directly or indirectly, workers in appalling conditions for little money, or outsourced work on the same terms. Have a read of 'No Logo' by Naomi Klein, then apply the boycot China logic to India, Indonesia, Vietnam, Taiwan, etc and you won't be able to wear clothes, shoes or aftershave again, and you may need to think twice before you eat or drink as well.

This is what I was thinking from the outset. Well put.

It seems odd to me that people would not buy tools because they are made in China based on the fact that they might be made by workers in poor conditions. If you wouldn't buy them for quality reasons, fair enough. But to try and take the moral high ground on buying tools seems frankly ridiculous to me unless you apply that logic to every purchase you make.

Presumably these people still shop in the big supermarkets? Buy clothes from John Lewis, Next, Primark et al? Have iPhones? What make is your computer?

 

[bugbear]

But to try and take the moral high ground on buying tools seems frankly ridiculous to me unless you apply that logic to every purchase you make.

You appear to be saying that if you can't be 100% moral, you shouldn't try to be moral at all.

I beg to disagree. Us fallible types will just have to try to be as moral as we can.

BugBear

 

[Job and Knock]

It's misleading to not buy Chinese because of bad labour laws and human rights violations. The trouble with knocking China is that you need to apply it to all or none.

So would you like to add to the list those firms operating here who keep the majority of their hourly paid staff on temporary zero hours agency contracts? All so they can reduced their employers NI payments and get away with allowing no workers rights. It's rife in sectors from food production to the construction industry

 

[Jacob]

It would be difficult to make every buying decision a moral decision. But you could for instance choose not to buy anything American (as a protest against the death penalty, or their terrible international warmongering, etc. etc.), or Chinese, or you could boycott Boots et al (tax dodgers).
Simpler to separate the moral issue from the problem of what to buy, by contributing to, say, Amnesty International, The Red Cross, or any of the many human rights organisations - and/or argue for humanitarian agendas politically and personally, such as on forums such as this.

I'm truly appalled the political chat is prohibited here - it's infantile and anti democratic. It's only by having ideas kicked about that people might change or develop them. Not voting, or not talking about issues isn't constructive - it's abject surrender.

 

[Carl P]

I find myself in the weird position of agreeing with both Jacob and Bugbear :shock:

Cheerio,

Carl

 

[Jacob]

I find myself in the weird position of agreeing with both Jacob and Bugbear :shock:

Cheerio,

Carl

Ooops yes sorry I see what you mean. I'll try to not let it happen again!

 

[Trafalgar]

I suspect it is less about ethics and more like a teenager who gets outed by his or her friends for not wearing a genuine brand of clothing. It speaks to your general inferiority to use one of these tools and by extension to not be able to afford what others believe is the 'real thing.' My pocketbook, amongst other things, is bigger than yours, etc., etc.

That's all any of this is about when you get down to it. Those that criticize along these lines are thrilled these tools exist, otherwise they'd have to go searching for similar fodder which they no doubt would find eventually -- and get a thrill up their leg rubbing virtual noses in it.

 

[G S Haydon]

It's not surprising this has moved as quickly as it has. It reminds me about an analogy about a hypothetical egg and spoon race. A group of parents find out the eggs being used are not free range. Shocked and wanting to to the right thing they all rush to their SUV's > Sportscars, race to the supermarket breaking the speed limit, run over an old granny in the process and dart into the local supermarket and buy a load of organic!

Jacob has it pretty much there. If you stray into labeling others decisions as not moral while uploading images from your I phone version 78, surrounded by copious other goods made in circumstances of dubious origin you look rather lame. Nothing wrong with promoting good stuff and good people but thinking a well made woodworking tool purchase from a good team of people makes you fit to judge the choices of others it not a position I would want to put myself in.

 

[lurker]

Are you lot still bickering about this!
Dear god! 16 pages!!
I'm going to start a thread about sharpening if you don't talk about something else

 

[iNewbie]

Is this a game of sanctimonious buttocks slating supposed sanctimonious buttocks?

 

[Carl P]

Are you lot still bickering about this!
Dear god! 16 pages!!
I'm going to start a thread about sharpening if you don't talk about something else

I'll only contribute if your sharpening medium is ethically sourced - otherwise you're boycotted!

Cheerio,

Carl

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Are you lot still bickering about this!
Dear god! 16 pages!!
I'm going to start a thread about sharpening if you don't talk about something else

The thread has rather taken on a life of it's own. When I made the original post, I thought there might be some discussion about what constitutes a 'knock-off' and the ethics of tool-buying, but the depth of information forthcoming and the quality of debate around the issues has pleasantly surprised me. (OK, there's been a bit of silliness too, but we always get that.) I think we're all a little wiser and better informed about the current situation, so as well as resolving a bit of a slight against UK woodworkers in general, it's been a very worthwhile and thought-provoking thread from my point of view. Thanks to all who contributed positively.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

I've loved this thread. Hand tool woodworking and the failings of international capitalism and neo colonialism, can't think of a better combination. I was terribly disappointed when I discovered Chris Schwartz's anarchist tool chest wasn't about anarchism, just about a box to put expensive (all be it genuine) tools in.
If you really want an ethical tool kit buy second hand and make your own. However, partly under the influence of you lot I already annoy the other people at my dry dock by chopping mortices with chisels and sawing wood with hand saws. "Why don't you use a router/table saw for that?" , I just tell that they are too noisy and besides it only takes me about 10x as long with hand tools. If I insisted on making all my tools I think we'd go bust.

 

[n0legs]

Do the LN, Veritas, LV, Gramercy, or other high end/boutique hand tools make you a better woodworker ?
It's a very simple question. I don't want to hear lines like 'it's reassuringly expensive', 'it's a pleasure to hold and look at'.
Don't even want to hear about build quality.

If I loaned my grandfathers Stanley No4 to, let's just say Tom Fidgen, let him sharpen it in his preferred manner would it have hindered him in any way when he is building one of his pieces ?
Or would he have done better with one of his Veritas planes ?

 

[iNewbie]

Do the LN, Veritas, LV, Gramercy, or other high end/boutique hand tools make you a better woodworker ?
It's a very simple question.

It is a simple question and maybe for some it does - maybe it releases their muse. Who knows...

But who really gives a **** if it does or not. I sometimes pick up my potatoes with the knife-end cuz I couldn't give a fork.

 

[Trafalgar]

Do the LN, Veritas, LV, Gramercy, or other high end/boutique hand tools make you a better woodworker ?
It's a very simple question. I don't want to hear lines like 'it's reassuringly expensive', 'it's a pleasure to hold and look at'.
Don't even want to hear about build quality.

If I loaned my grandfathers Stanley No4 to, let's just say Tom Fidgen, let him sharpen it in his preferred manner would it have hindered him in any way when he is building one of his pieces ?
Or would he have done better with one of his Veritas planes ?

Record worked fine for Alan Peters. None of his work ever seemed to lack for fit and finish.