Did I cause this?

[D_W]

He's a hobby woodworker. A reasonably good one, but he will often say things like "I used a circular saw to cut the end off of my bench because it wasn't feasible to do it with a hand saw" (that's paraphrased, I don't remember exactly.

There are lots of reasonably good hobby woodworker. Charlie Stanford on here has worked at more than hobby woodworking, and I would imagine that if he could smile and be rosy and friendly to people asking questions about V11, he could make Chris look bad pretty quickly. There was a point where Chris had been reading about clenching nails and advocating doing so as a matter of practicality or something similar. He showed the nails clenched, and it looked like a car wreck. George suggested in writing that it was a mess (implying that he pulled the trigger on showing everyone his new trick before he sighted in his rifle) and that resulted in negative blog posts about forums on the blog that so many rely on.

re: Paul, he doesn't push tools, but he has no problem suggesting strange lifestyle things, expensive classes for example. I can't get comfortable with that. If someone is going to teach woodworkers, though, they're not going to be able to go broke trying to teach someone to make a federal side table for ten cents - I recognize that. You have to go with the first one's free kid thing, and get people hooked.

 

[D_W]

Dave, thanks for those posts. To this amateur woodworker with an interest in old tools, they make a lot of sense.

It's a bit galling to see the volume of old UK tools still getting bought by US makers - I guess it's a combination of rarity on your side, plus the presence of all those obedient beginners with deep pockets and a favourable exchange rate. On the plus side, as more people realise that some old tools are worth a bit, the number who just throw tools away might diminish.

But it still rankles to watch Patrick Leach gathering up a truckload of goodies at any David Stanley auction. :evil:

Well, we do like your parers, and your old wooden planes (I suspect the planes aren't purchased that much, even though they're such the better deal than what we get over here). AT one time, infills were the rage, and I think a couple of dealers looted every collector's sale over there and brought them over here.

Infills have fallen out of style in terms of the older ones, though, because the well-heeled buyers seem to be switching from collectors (who really only want perfect or exceedingly rare to begin with) to mid career finance professionals who really just want a plane that they can take out of the box and put on wood without even sharpening it (hence, things like Brese infills still seem to sell for mind boggling prices, and there's a waiting list).

That said, a decent norris 2 is still twice here vs. there, at least on the ground. I'm sure there are some UK dealers who would charge 500 quid for a good norris 2, but I got one off of ebay for 225 quid with original wood and ward iron before the goofs at the global shipping program(me) confiscated it. Our biggest dealer of fenced english items (bode tools) had a similar but not as good plane for about $800 at the time...

...correct that, I just looked. It's $875 and covered with pitting.

In terms of the average thing, if there ever is a shortage of stanley planes over here, it won't be for lack of plane numbers vs. users, it'll be because of the folks like my friends' grandfather - who just need to have 1,600 of them. Lots of hobby woodworkers over here with 50 or so of them.

 

[ED65]

The early responses I got, including one from Rob™ himself, were all saying that restoring tools is not worth it.

I was already not a fan but that would certainly add to it if I needed another reason. Can't remember offhand what it was put me off him, I semi-remember it was some nonsensical statement about sharpening.

Seemingly second-hand is synonymous with 'rusted and wrecked' over there and it's only when I gave examples of UK 2nd hand tools in fine fettle with just the barest hint of patina, that an educated fella pointed out the difference - They don't have any original Stanley No 4 planes at sensible prices, or at least not enough for everyone in the country who wants one.

I'm glad I wasn't drinking this coffee in front of me when I read that. That... that's just preposterous. There are millions of secondhand planes out there. In a huge country that spans a continent it can be very difficult for some who aren't in the right sort of place to find them but to say that there aren't enough to go around is absolute nonsense.

 

[Tasky]

but he will often say things like "I used a circular saw to cut the end off of my bench because it wasn't feasible to do it with a hand saw"

I might have respect for him if he'd simply said, 'I just couldn't be bothered today' or something... Same way Paul Sellers does not shy away when he makes mistakes, made even better if he shows how he goes about fixing it.
One of my favourite quotes was, "I'm a sixty-fourth of an inch out on this side... that's close enough for an Englishman".
In fact, the last episode (no. 3?) of his new Workbench project looked like a right disaster - The clamps kept popping off the sawhorses, the legs not being worked on were falling over... he seemed to give up and just knocked the rest of it to the floor at one point. I think this was also the one where the ferrule kept coming loose on his cheapy chisel, so he just showed how to tack it back in place and get back to work! :lol:

There was a point where Chris had been reading about clenching nails and advocating doing so as a matter of practicality or something similar. He showed the nails clenched, and it looked like a car wreck.

I saw Richard Maguire clinching nails on one of his projects. I'd seen it on things before and it always looked like a messy half-assed job by some lazy box maker, but it never looked drastically out of place on a crate or old church box (talking cheaply made 17th-19th century antique stuff). Richard did it well enough that it not only looked right, but actually looked quite tasteful. I noted it down as something to try on some of the historic projects I want to do one day. Another of those that probably looks easier to do, than it is to well.

George suggested in writing that it was a mess (implying that he pulled the trigger on showing everyone his new trick before he sighted in his rifle) and that resulted in negative blog posts about forums on the blog that so many rely on.

re: Paul, he doesn't push tools, but he has no problem suggesting strange lifestyle things, expensive classes for example. I can't get comfortable with that.

Well, there's only so much you can teach for free, but you need a fair amount to establish your woodworking chops and build a reputation as someone worth paying to learn from. I assume these were some kind of more advanced, moe detailed or just more time-consuming classes than a short YouTube miniseries would allow for?

You have to go with the first one's free kid thing, and get people hooked.

3-minute dovetails, now buy my Saw™ sort of thing, yeh? :lol:

In terms of the average thing, if there ever is a shortage of stanley planes over here, it won't be for lack of plane numbers vs. users, it'll be because of the folks like my friends' grandfather - who just need to have 1,600 of them. Lots of hobby woodworkers over here with 50 or so of them.

That, or the YouTube Woodworking Community... Seems your videos can't be taken seriously unless your backdrop includes cabinets with at least 50 different Stanley planes! :lol:

I was already not a fan but that would certainly add to it if I needed another reason. Can't remember offhand what it was put me off him, I semi-remember it was some nonsensical statement about sharpening.

Well, until one of his less-rabid fanboys stepped in, I didn't realise there was such a shortage of fine-fettle 2nd hand tools, meaning that anything not brand new would need as full a restoration as something dug out of a peat bog from 700AD. Every other video I'd seen showed how just a few minutes of sorting out was all you typically needed for an eBay purchase...
I am kinda put off by how he sort-of appropriates things - Like how he shows you His™ method of sharpening... which is exactly the same as David Charlesworth's who he even credits, but doing something ever so slightly different to seem like he makes it his own.

I'm glad I wasn't drinking this coffee in front of me when I read that. That... that's just preposterous.

Just how it was explained to me... That, or they're not well cared for and/or not for sale on eBay (which posts everywhere in the CONUS, I'd think), perhaps? Supposedly that was why they all choose to buy brand new tools.
Not my concern, though. I'm rather happy with my cheap old stuff so far!!

 

[D_W]

The early responses I got, including one from Rob™ himself, were all saying that restoring tools is not worth it.

I was already not a fan but that would certainly add to it if I needed another reason. Can't remember offhand what it was put me off him, I semi-remember it was some nonsensical statement about sharpening.

Seemingly second-hand is synonymous with 'rusted and wrecked' over there and it's only when I gave examples of UK 2nd hand tools in fine fettle with just the barest hint of patina, that an educated fella pointed out the difference - They don't have any original Stanley No 4 planes at sensible prices, or at least not enough for everyone in the country who wants one.

I'm glad I wasn't drinking this coffee in front of me when I read that. That... that's just preposterous. There are millions of secondhand planes out there. In a huge country that spans a continent it can be very difficult for some who aren't in the right sort of place to find them but to say that there aren't enough to go around is absolute nonsense.

Something about the 30k shapton being a benefit .

I'm sure i'm going to step on some toes with this next one, but he also sells that trend diamond hone that from what I can tell, is made in china with a very spurious flatness claim ("per inch", which doesn't amount to much) and a cost greater than two perfectly flat Japanese Atomas or any american-made plate. I asked rob about that, along the lines of "why would you sell a plate like that for $150" or whatever the CDN peso price was at the time, and he just said "my markup is the same as it is elsewhere" (paraphrased - it's probably on a youtube comment).

All that said, Rob has never been less than pleasant with me, even when I'm pushing his buttons, and I understand he does have a ginormous brood (10 or so?) and a religious affiliation (not that it's important except for this point that is very demanding in terms of members' funds. I'm not calling him out on that, either - that's everyones' personal choice - he actually has two missionaries on his videos (and a lot of rude commenters in the section below the video who are way out of bounds about things that are Rob's personal choice), which is why I know that. I wouldn't poke into someones' business of that sort. All of those things mean a need for cash, though, and though i'm not his target market, I find him too be quite likable and pleasant when talking. He's catering to a market, and that market does like him, just like paul's likes him.

Both are credibly good woodworkers, and both have formal training. They're far beyond me in both of those respects, I can only comment from the peanut gallery.

 

[ED65]

Well, until one of his less-rabid fanboys stepped in, I didn't realise there was such a shortage of fine-fettle 2nd hand tools...

Or so they'd have had you believe!

Just how it was explained to me... That, or they're not well cared for and/or not for sale on eBay (which posts everywhere in the CONUS, I'd think), perhaps?

It's like the Canadians have not heard of Kijiji, the Americans of CL. And wow, yard sales and estate sales just don't happen across both countries :mrgreen:

I hate their implication that old tools have to be even close to perfect to be salvageable too. I totally get not want to take the chance on something in rough condition, especially if buying it from photos, but for the more common stuff that was produced in large numbers for decade upon decade it's not like there's a shortage of examples that aren't too bad.

 

[D_W]

I made a video a while ago about setting up a plane in about 15 minutes (it did need a bit of flattening of the initial camber, but that is done in the second honing, so no real problem).

I got two more last week (wait, I'm part of the problem....but only with infills and stanley 4s....and rare sorby jointers....). Anyway, when a beginner comes along and they display proper victimhood, I'll often shed a #4 or something similar to them, and I was down to 1. 15 minutes each, same as all of the other ones. No frog fettling, no handle haberdashery, no patina puffing. Set up the iron and cap iron, tighten the screws, lap the sole and use it. Some are made a little better than others, but they all work the same once you stop measuring the ounce inches of force required to turn the small adjuster knobs vs. the large, or putting the sole under the microscope to figure out if the surface finish is 400 grit aluminum oxide or 600 grit silicon carbide.

I'm not sure how antiques are usually sold in the UK, but we do have shops here in the US that are actual sellers (they tend to be overpriced by a long shot) as well as booths at rural antique malls where a local specializes in going to weekday estate sales and pulling out the planes that come in boxes for a dollar (our local guy like that back where I'm from is a bit below ebay price for most of his wares - he doesn't do the internet thing). Actually, there's a second guy. They find the stuff for pennies more or less and are fair. There are also a lot of buy-a-booth places where all of "mom's glassware, book collection, stainless sears carving sets" etc show up and once in a great while there will be a plane in those. But they get picked out and that stuff gets sold on ebay. Ebay has really thinned out what's on the ground for a decent price, because everyone and their brother can get out their iphone, find the sold listings and pick up a 20 dollar plane and sell it for 50.

neighborhood yard sales, if you actually peruse them (i don't) do turn up planes, but usually 4s and 5s, and often later model (those are fine, though).

I think it's generally the internet here that creates a culture of people who think most work done in the past was done by tough starving people who were too dumb to know they were using terrible "low quality" tools with "subpar steel". I guess that's good to some extent, or the supply of stanley planes would be thinner. But it's not an issue on the ground here - I could buy 50 planes each year when I visit my parents if I thought I needed them. They're not $2, but you wouldn't lose money on them if you listed them on ebay.

CL around here tends to be filled with plastic handled planes for $75, used milling machine bits for high price, and headlight aiming tools. there are some excellent things on it, including lumber sometimes, but the tool section is kind of bad for anything that can be shipped (that just goes to ebay).

 

[bridger]

Aldi chisels, £8 in shop... selling on eBay for £20 and tagged "As recommended by Paul Sellers". Seriously.
He's the reason why I still can't land a decent condition router plane for sensible money. I bid on a couple just the other day that were at £20, just like Paul buys all his for... Just to be absolutely sure, I bid £65, only to see them suddenly sell for over £80!!
At this rate a brand new Veritas one will be cheaper!

Trolling ebay yesterday to make specialty chisels for planemaking, I saw a seller who was selling a $7 set of HF chisels for $35 with some kind of creative name stamped on them.

(presumably, you guys don't have the magical cosmoline-soaked wonderland that is harbor freight over here).

I did buy a set of those HF chisels years ago, when they were a little less than a dollar each. They're actually not too bad, just oddly long and light. A little soft, but that's not terminal.

The steel is as you say, soft but useable. The worst aspect of HF chisels is the fit and finish. Just roughly ground to shape, clunky handles, etc.
They are reasonable as a source for blade blanks for special use chisels.

 

[Tasky]

All that said, Rob has never been less than pleasant with me, even when I'm pushing his buttons, and I understand he does have a ginormous brood (10 or so?) and a religious affiliation (not that it's important except for this point that is very demanding in terms of members' funds.

To me, that still doesn't justify flogging a shooting board for £150 (plus tax, plus shipping, etc)...
People managed very fine work long before the legendary Dovetail Saw™ came into being and should still be able to manage it without.

I hate their implication that old tools have to be even close to perfect to be salvageable too.

Not even - I simply went for kit that didn't cost much and only needed a quick sharpen to get working.

I'm not sure how antiques are usually sold in the UK

Antique shops and junk shops for the lower-priced stuff, dedicated dealers for the fancy bits, then charity shops, flea markets, car boot sales and eBay type places for others. I went to one in Shropshire the other week and they had tons pf planes and saws and all sorts... but they were spread all over the place and you had to really hunt for them. Most shops recognise that something is a tool of some kind and so it goes in the section with screwdrivers and spades and hoes and drills and theodolytes and microscopes, at least...

Ebay has really thinned out what's on the ground for a decent price, because everyone and their brother can get out their iphone, find the sold listings and pick up a 20 dollar plane and sell it for 50.

Looks to be what's happening with router planes at the minute. All going for about £70...

 

[D_W]

I don't really pick sides here, but I think given Rob's markets (maybe I'm picking his side) and what he's doing (providing for a very large family), I think he's OK. I think he also believes strongly in what he's doing and what he's making, and I often (by the way, I'm not more important than anyone else, I'm not accomplished at all - I can make good planes and set up a stanley 4 in a few minutes, but that's about it) ....anyway, I often quote the decisions driven by beginners.

Put yourself in the US in place of a guy who works in a finance company and has a spouse who also works in a per-hour billing rate kind of job. Both will have relatively little time, but they're starting to shift toward non-status leisure (that is, status leisure is sort of like taking a vacation to hawaii, spending 12 grand on it and making sure you're telling everyone, because no Harvard MBA is going to go back and boast about how their vacation cost nothing because they built garage shelving out of pallets. I'd do that, but that's why I'm working with and for the people who boast about those things and am not one of them). At any rate, they start to think about making things because they hear it's satisfying or perhaps (this is common in the US where there is no real class division other than by behavior and speaking in the right jargon) they grew up on a farm and vaguely recall learning things done by hand. So they take their several million dollar net worth and they go to a class to make things. They're not going to do as I did and buy 15 double iron planes and figure out how to make them without any reference - the results you get on the first few iterations aren't up to snuff (mine were, but I got lucky - but I had more experience making planes than a rank beginner). What they want is what they get from their staff. (Am i strawmanning, enough?), and that is that they have a concept that they want to do, but someone else needs to do the detail work and bring it to them. If they spend $700, they could've perhaps paid the bill for four at the capitol grille the weekend before and paid the same amount.

Rob will have experience in spades with that type, and so will every high end music shop and everything else where Tom T Taylor comes in looking to learn something but get on the accelerated path. Tom T is looking for a mental vacation, and it won't start with a saw that has a couple of broken teeth (something I'd delight in if I could confirm the teeth broke from abuse and not brittleness).

Tom T's first hand man may also have a low six figure salary and have spent most of his life working and go to Rob's class, and so may Mary Smith, a teacher in PA who made $100K (they do, here) at retirement and has health care covered and a $7500 a month pension.

The local guy who is doing basic claims approval at a small mutual insurance company making $18 an hour isn't going to be going to those classes. If he has the drive, he'll be learning about the old tools.

If Rob doesn't serve Tom T Taylor's market, someone else will. The experience most people state from Rob's class is often no less than exceptional. They go in looking for very specific direction. They come out cutting very tidy dovetails.

Rob takes a good deal of abuse from the claims-type guy I'm mentioning above, but it's not the market he's serving. I find a $700 slotted saw a bit off from what I'd buy, but I'm not Tom T. Taylor - that's for sure. (I don't think Rob has that saw any longer, he took a lot of heat for it, but he still makes a $250 saw or something of that sort, and by all accounts it's pretty good).

I mention that Rob is pleasant, because at times I have really snarked him (to him, I don't do that behind peoples' backs). Charlie Stanford on here made a few cracks ("Where's his portfolio?") about Rob on another forum (I wouldn't say it if he didn't), and when Rob registered and showed up, Charlie didn't, maybe he wasn't logged in - I don't know. I took Charlie's ball (the troll ball) and ran with it and hit Rob up with that question right away "You sell a lot of expensive tools, and where's your portfolio again?". That was really a jerk thing to do, and I'm not proud of it at this point now that I'm a little older. I learned a lesson from Rob that day. He was kind to me, both in his response and in private several times. Our off forum conversations were short and not exactly full of substance (not his fault, more mine). I'm sure he's busy, he could've blasted me and ran off, but he didn't - and he did send me a link to his portfolio when I asked that and explained that in North America, if you make furniture for people, they're usually more interested in finding out how to make it than they are in buying it. Personally, I think the way he responded says a lot. A cynic might contend that it's all part of the gimmick, but I think Rob is genuinely a nice guy. Where I get cross is when someone is running the same kind of business, makes claims outright and then is very unfriendly to anyone who doesn't agree.

I'm not Rob's market, but I get how he operates and tip my cap to the pleasantness he showed me despite the fact that I was obviously not as pleasant at the outset. If a friend is not Rob's market, and you can tell, you can always (and I do the same) point them to a used disston gent's saw or something and get it up and get them going.

 

[D_W]

Your antique market (the various types of sellers), by the way, sounds a lot like ours. There are fewer expert tool dealers, though, and quite often, they have absurd prices and buy low when they buy. That's probably why they're still in business.

 

[Tasky]

I don't really pick sides here, but I think given Rob's markets (maybe I'm picking his side) and what he's doing (providing for a very large family), I think he's OK.

I'm sure he is... it's the markets he's catering to I object to in principle. Most people probably buy new and make what they're told to only because they don't know of any other option... and he's doing nothing to change that perception, as he's making a fortune off it.

I often quote the decisions driven by beginners.

Those same decisions that drove me here are what, very soon after, drove me to abandon the idea that I just need a few power tools to make what I want and go learn about chisels and planes!
The insane prices of kit some people advocated are what drove me to the more sensible sources of both free learning and cheaper (better?) tools.

because no Harvard MBA is going to go back and boast about how their vacation cost nothing because they built garage shelving out of pallets.

Why not?
Surely saving money and/or generating assets for minimal cost is pretty sound business sense?
Proving you are multi-talented, multi-skilled and adaptable, with a wide range of experiences and abilities on top of being able to tell other people what to do is far better than simply being reliant on paying someone to do something for you, while you go waste time sitting around paying other people to do more things for you?

this is common in the US where there is no real class division other than by behavior and speaking in the right jargon

It's common here too, across many class divides - Pride in the ability to do something for yourself. I find it's mostly the 'new money' middle to upper-middle classes who think it more "cost-beneficial" to pay someone else to do things they should be perfectly capable of themselves... like driving 40 miles and paying £20+ for a 2-minute change of wiper blades on the car, when it's written down in the owners manual and even on YouTube!

What they want is what they get from their staff. (Am i strawmanning, enough?), and that is that they have a concept that they want to do, but someone else needs to do the detail work and bring it to them.

Easier to just pay a custom builder, surely?

If Rob doesn't serve Tom T Taylor's market, someone else will. The experience most people state from Rob's class is often no less than exceptional. They go in looking for very specific direction. They come out cutting very tidy dovetails.

I bet for the same amount of money they could just buy some machinery and do it just as easily, but without needing things like the clip-on spirit level Dovetail Trainer™, though...

Rob takes a good deal of abuse from the claims-type guy I'm mentioning above, but it's not the market he's serving.

My problem is that people like Rob, in both woodworking and many other hobbies/interests/industries have to shout loud and lots in order to draw enough people in to buy their stuff. In doing so, they also draw the attention of and misinform what would otherwise end up being quite sensible newbies... In one of my first threads right here, someone tried to extol the virtues of hand tools over the machinery I was interested in, by showing me the Rob Cosman™ Three Minute Dovetails™ video. OK, yeah, impressive marketing trick and right up there with planes that spew out quarter-thou thick shavings... but not really what it's about and ridiculously expensive.

I mention that Rob is pleasant, because at times I have really snarked him

He's been pleasant to me, in that he quite plainly admitted he's only interested in flogging his brand and associated tools rather than trying to justify it. If you can't afford him, you don't belong in woodworking, as his skills can only be learned by those who have 'proper' tools and he's too busy to get involved in restoration.

Personally, I think the way he responded says a lot. A cynic might contend that it's all part of the gimmick, but I think Rob is genuinely a nice guy. Where I get cross is when someone is running the same kind of business, makes claims outright and then is very unfriendly to anyone who doesn't agree.

Well, you kinda need to show your own chops before you can start teaching others about it. Show your authority before you try and speak with it.

Your antique market (the various types of sellers), by the way, sounds a lot like ours. There are fewer expert tool dealers, though, and quite often, they have absurd prices and buy low when they buy. That's probably why they're still in business.

I have seen a couple online... and yes, specialist dealers means very high prices for something *they claim* is rare... which is exactly what sellers on eBay do. You should see how much peope are paying for Krugerrand (1oz), over and above the actual price of 1oz gold normally!!