How do I improve mitre accuracy?

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YorkshireMartin

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Putting together a ply desk for someone. It's going to be mounted to a wall with batons, so I only had to work up a top and some support for the underside. Nothing complicated.

I decided to mitre the corners of the frame, just to see how accurate I could get it. It's turned out ok, especially considering the dimensions involved, but its not perfect. The cumulative error is shown in the picture, the other mitres are tight.

Is perfection possible over these lengths with this material? How would I go about measuring this amount of error in the first place because I think it's less than 0.1deg out. Are we just talking an expensive gauge or is there a trick I can use, for example?

Outside dimensions are 2000x610. 18mm birch ply.

How would the pro's do it in a situation where no gap is acceptable at all?

ps. Lost my little counter sink bit, so theres some bloody big holes...but we shall overlook those :lol:
 

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When cutting mitres the best way to check accuracy of a 45deg cut is to cut a pair put together and check for 90 degrees.

Something the size of a desk should be checked by diagonals for squareness. Checking each corner only confirms the state locally to the corner.

Mitres, so simple but so tricky to get spot on!

We make large gable ends for conservatories upto 4metres wide, we find cuts have to be close to 0.1deg
 
If the rest are tight, the corners all square and lengths of sides/ends the same is it not just that one that is out?

How did you cut the mitres?
 
Doug71":2oz405zy said:
If the rest are tight, the corners all square and lengths of sides/ends the same is it not just that one that is out?

How did you cut the mitres?

Yes its just one thats out, I'm thinking its cumulative error as I was pretty careful when marking/cutting.

I cut the mitres on a mitre saw.
 
Picture framers tend to use specialist "shearing" machines to get the mitres accurate. Few if any power mitre saws will cut exactly 45degrees. Depending on the machine you can do test cuts and if the material is easily flipped and the machine adjustable enough you can get it spot on. My Makita SCMS will cut to an accuracy of + or - 1 degree so I wouldn't bother using it for this sort of job (I'd rather not use it for any sort of job). With a fair bit of care you can use a chisel or block plane to tighten the mitres up. If the wood's soft enough you can also cramp it up very tightly to remove gaps!!
 
One technique I've seen suggested but not used is to cut the mitres as close as possible, then clamp the ends together. Then run a handsaw across the joint so it leaves a parallel kerf. Then glue and clamp up.

There are mitre clamps designed for this, with a saw guide built in. Quite common secondhand.

Doing this would make the pieces very slightly shorter so you'd need to take a shaving off your desktop. Stop before it gets too small!
 
You have 8 angles to cut at exactly the same angle and two pairs of sides to cut at exactly the same length.
Its not surprising they come out wrong just one error multiplied 8 times is easily visible.

As Andy T said run a saw down the last one to even out the gap.

Pete
 
Perhaps it would have been better to spread the error over all 4 sides, it would probably have been barely noticeable.
 
Racers":uzyf66lu said:
You have 8 angles to cut at exactly the same angle and two pairs of sides to cut at exactly the same length.
Its not surprising they come out wrong just one error multiplied 8 times is easily visible.

As Andy T said run a saw down the last one to even out the gap.

Pete

If you run a saw through it, then you make it shorter and so have to fill it, which is just as bad, no?
 
transatlantic":nima539f said:
Racers":nima539f said:
You have 8 angles to cut at exactly the same angle and two pairs of sides to cut at exactly the same length.
Its not surprising they come out wrong just one error multiplied 8 times is easily visible.

As Andy T said run a saw down the last one to even out the gap.

Pete

If you run a saw through it, then you make it shorter and so have to fill it, which is just as bad, no?

Theoretically, yes, but in practice, on something the size of a desktop, you exploit the compressible nature of the wood and it works out ok. Obviously, you'd use as fine a saw as you could, consistent with the size of the error, so minimising the effect.
 
I think we just proved that the cumulative errors mean that making a barrel is impossible.

Which is going to come as terrible news to coopers. :)

BugBear
 
This will be a long answer as it touches on a few different aspects of woodwork. There are two different fundamental approaches to cabinet making. The newer and currently dominant approach, based around accurate machine set-ups to produce interchangeable components, and the older approach, based around the special tricks and techniques for fitting individual components together. I'll start with the newer method.

Whenever I sell someone a piece of furniture I try and take advantage of having a willing customer with an open cheque book, and sell them something else at the same time. As often as not that "something else" is a large mirror using the same timbers as the original commission. Until recently I had a picture framer's Morso guillotine, the big floor standing version which incorporates a double mitre knife and an accurate length stop.

Morso-1.jpg


This machine went a long way to both speeding up and de-skilling the operation. But last year I decided to re-lay my workshop and sold the Morso, so I've had to figure out a way to produce perfect, flawless mitres using my remaining equipment. Here's what I'm talking about, mirror frames from 75-100mm wide components in solid timber

Mirror.jpg


There are several separate elements to first quality mitres, and I'll tackle them individually.

First is cutting a precise 45 degree mitre. How precise is precise? The most accurate angle measuring tool I have is a Mitutoyo Protractor that reliably reads down to five minutes of arc, which is one twelfth of a degree. I've established this is just at the margins of acceptable accuracy, for zero visible gaps I'd still like it a bit more precise, but I can work with this. It's not far from the 0.1 degree that you mentioned. You can pretty much replicate this precision with a test mitre on two scrap arms, assemble them and check with a backlit square. I see Martin you're using a 300mm Starrett combi, personally I prefer to do this with a 600mm blade fitted, but a 300mm will do. Dropping the 45 degree shoulder section of your combi square onto a cut mitre won't give anything like the same level of precision. The key thing is getting that test mitre tightly fitted and being really rigorous in your examination. If there's a minute gap don't kid yourself it's not there, keep adjusting the saw fence until you've removed it. To put this in context, I find it fairly hard to achieve the required accuracy on a Festool Kapex mitre saw, the adjustment mechanism just isn't fine enough. It can be done, but it's a long job and if the machine gets moved it goes out of the setting. It's a bit quicker on my sliding table panel saw, but it's still at the limits of achievable accuracy, and I'll often resort to shims of masking tape on the fence to make the final adjustments. Surprisingly the quickest route I've found is using an MFT table with dogs and a track saw. The price you pay going this route is setting the lengths.

Which takes us on to the second issue. Getting each pair of opposing arms precisely the same length. This is harder than it seems, you cannot measure the length by the way, it's impossible to achieve the required consistency from a ruler. The first mitre cut on any arm is easy, but the second cut, when you're referencing from a previously cut mitre, is a pig. The reason is your reference end finishes in a feather edge, this can either disappear in a gap behind the stop, or you can dub over the feather edge if you apply too much pressure. A variance of a few tenths of a mill will result in gappy mitres. The best solution is to cut all the mitres at one end of your four arms, then make a false stop with a matching 45 degree angle for cutting the mitres in the opposite ends. This is how the length stop on the Morso is designed and it works. The only thing you need to be careful about is blowing out any dust that gathers by the angled stop.

The third issue is jointing. It's not really a problem with sheet goods because they're more stable, but with solid timber it's a real issue. The key thing is this, over time the timber will shrink and swell, and when it does it will try and open a gap at either the inside or outside edge of your mitres, eventually the glue will start to fail and a tiny gap will open. This gap will quickly fill with household grime and will look very shabby. If your mitre is to look good for decades to come then you need to find a joinery solution that stretches as far across that mitre as possible. It's easy to pop a Domino or a dowel into the inside corner, where there's plenty of meat on the bone, but the outside corner is harder. The solution I use most is a biscuit, but a shaped spline would also work well. I aim to get the joinery to within 3mm of that external corner to provide support right the way across.

The fourth issue is cramping during the glue-up. With heavier components (say over 50mm wide) you can just about get away with a band cramp. But beware, when you tighten a band cramp it's trying to turn your rectangular frame into an oval, in other words it's attempting to open up the inside edge of the mitres. Many people see that happening and respond by tightening more, when the correct remedy is to slacken off the pressure. Picture framers use an underpinner; as well as driving in framing wedges this machine also grips the joint within the rebate and pulls it tightly together. I was very fortunate in finding a long discontinued Morso product that is a specialist and heavy duty corner cramp. In the absence of such a tool the best alternative is temporarily glued on cramping blocks. Mike references cramping blocks in this current forum thread,

i-hope-this-works-t106982.html

Cramping blocks are a giant faff, but hey, achieving first quality work is just one giant faff after another! So only you can decide if you're up for it or not. Another option is specialist corner cramps (they're not expensive and there's loads on the second hand market) or picture framer's "springs" and then tacking the joint together while the glue sets and filling the holes. One final cramping tip, the mitre joint is essentially end grain to end grain. If you're using PVA it helps to apply a first coat of slightly thinned PVA, leave that for a couple of minutes to soak into the end grain, then apply a full strength coat and cramp it up. You'll get a much stronger joint this way, but UF or polyurethane glues are even better still for end grain.

So these are the chief elements to achieving first rate mitres in the contemporary workshop, where the overarching assumption is that quality comes from producing precise and interchangeable components. But in woodworking there's always another way, and our forebears, without power tools, needed to find one. There was a thread recently about a chap struggling with his mortice and tenon joints, the solution was scribing the tenon shoulders. It's disappointing that this approach, fitting your joints together by hand, is slowly dropping off the radar of many woodworkers. It requires hand tool skills, but where's the satisfaction in woodworking if not in that? Andy T hinted at this approach with his suggestion of running a plunge saw across the joint, but that particular remedy won't work as it'll just open up bigger gaps elsewhere. Finely tuning your errant mitre with a block plane would still produce gaps elsewhere, but at least they'd be smaller!

Many years ago I studied under a well known cabinet maker and restorer called Bruce Luckhurst, he showed me an alternative approach to fitting mitres that I still use today for inlay work. Incidentally, he also showed me the tiny marks on antiques that the original makers had placed there to assist with assembly, I guess they were usually in pencil and were subsequently removed, but every now and again there were minute imprinted dots or notches, they were needed because all the components, the stiles and rails etc, were not interchangeable, they had all been hand fitted together so needed to be glued up in that one unique order. The secret to Bruce's method for fitted mitres was working in a particular sequence, a sequence that ensures you're always fitting a component between two previously cut mitres.

You draw up a rod on a sheet of scrap giving the inner and outer edges of your frame. You cut all the components a couple of mill over length and already mitred to the best of your abilities. You can use a shooting board like the old boys, or a really good modern option is a disc sander. You're not trying for a precise length so a disc sander is an excellent tool for this, you'll find you can make a fence from a bit of straight scrap and cramp it to the table with a couple of G Cramps, from there you can play around, tapping the fence with a hammer and checking until you've got a really precise 45 degree angle. By the way, I can find that precise angle faster on an inexpensive disc sander with a bit of scrap for a fence, than I can with a Festool Kapex or a £20k panel saw. You then tape down (or use hot melt glue or whatever) two opposing arms of your frame onto the rod with the mitres precisely aligned to your pencil marks. You then fit the arm between these two fixed references. With practise (it takes a modicum of skill) you can creep up on the joint, making minute adjustments as you go, planing or sanding off tiny amounts here and there, until you arrive at a perfectly gap free joint. You then number these joints on either side so you can reconstruct them exactly at the glue-up, and progress around the frame in a similar fashion. This is how I achieve perfect mitres on inlay work like this,

Jewellry-Box.jpg
 

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custard":x0iib1z2 said:
There was a thread recently about a chap struggling with his mortice and tenon joints, the solution was scribing the tenon shoulders. It's disappointing that this approach, fitting your joints together by hand, is slowly dropping off the radar of many woodworkers. It requires hand tool skills, but where's the satisfaction in woodworking if not in that? Andy T hinted at this approach with his suggestion of running a plunge saw across the joint, but that particular remedy won't work as it'll just open up bigger gaps elsewhere. Finely tuning your errant mitre with a block plane would still produce gaps elsewhere, but at least they'd be smaller!

Just to clarify, when I wrote "saw" I meant a backsaw (tenon saw).

But I think we could all learn from what Custard has shared with us there.

Not fine cabinet work, but I've used a similar method when fitting planted mouldings into square edged frames. Scaling that up, I imagine that if you were making something like a mirror frame, having a flat board with square edged strips fixed on surrounding the mirror frame parts would be similar and give a nice positive fit, as a jig rather than a rod or drawing. It could also help with clamping up.
 
Gentlemen, thank you for the replies.

Your comments are detailed and demand a proper reply, so I will try to explain where I am with this, what I've tried and how such things may relate to the comments made.

One issue that comes up time and again when aiming for first quality work (as custard put it), is the issue of gauging, be it angles, flatness etc. Whether measuring for machine calibration or a workpiece, without an extremely accurate reference, you're going nowhere fast. The other option, of course, is trial and error, but there are so many variables which come into play, I personally believe that it's important to have a reference for any situation, as far as is practicable.

I cannot afford to buy a £5,000 lab grade granite flat reference, so, the flatness of say, my planer tables and the subsequent squareness of my stock will only ever be as good as what Veritas managed to turn out with their aluminium straight edge. The same goes for mitres. I'm lucky enough to have a 300mm Starrett combi square (comment about ruler length taken on board - question at bottom), but after daily use for a couple of years, its accuracy will suffer. As it wears, so the accuracy of my work lessens. I also own a trend digital angle gauge which I think is supposed to be rated for +/- 0.2 degrees. Calibrating one against the other has been somewhat successful.

It is a case of diminishing returns I've found, but I do strive for perfection, because, why not.

The gap I showed, in the location its in, is insignificant in itself for this job. It's on the underside at the back and it will never be seen. The ply board had been stored incorrectly (not by me) and had twisted along its length, which introduced a further problem. My mitre saw, a Bosch GCM8 SJL, was calibrated as best I could within its limits. Turns out, it's pretty damned accurate. The gap is tiny and the mitres really received no special treatment at all of the type you guys describe. Due to the lengths involved, I didnt even cut in pairs as I usually would, so they were all measured prior to mitreing and off I went. I was careful with the cutting, though and the measuring of length was within less than 0.35mm (pencil thickness) over 2m. Fluked it...! Width I let slide a bit but again, that was due to the nature of the project.

So in itself, I suppose it's a demonstration of what can be achieved with nothing more than reasonable quality gauges and a well set up saw. As someone said, it would probably have been possible to clamp it and eliminate the gap altogether, but for this build time was a factor so I didn't try. The band clamp incidentally, was there just to hold everything square to the top, rather than for bringing the mitre joints together, so there was virtually no pressure applied. Interesting comment about the band clamps trying to pull the work into ovoid shapes and definitely one to note. Mitre clamps were on the shopping list but again, to really ensure first quality work, they would need checking with a very accurate reference.

I've looked at guillotines and hand mitre saws as were suggested by Andy T (http://wickes.scene7.com/is/image/travi ... ng-product - similar to this?), if I understood him correctly, but when buying second hand (or from Wickes), again, you're sort of taking a stab in the dark that it's accurate. That accurate reference OR the trial and error approach is still needed. It's something I might get around to eventually.

I think my choice would be a shooting board but of course that comes with it's own set of problems being as its made of wood and will wear over time.

What I take away from all this, is that the key is patience. Perfection takes time and experimentation as well as accurate, well maintained tools and jigs. For custard, I'm imagining the investment in mitutoyo gauges is well worth it, because trial and error would take up too much of his time vs. say, a hobbyist?

As an aside, if I really am going for the best work I can produce, I do fit each joint individually, but it certainly helps to have accurate machining as a starting point. Chris Tribe, on his jointing course, teaches people to label each component end and I personally feel that it's a good habit to get into, even if it's not strictly necessary for every piece of work you might produce.

I was hoping my question would generate some discussion as well as feedback and I'm glad it did. These issues are applicable to a broad range of woodworking situations, including I'd imagine, literally any joint.

Thanks to everyone who contributed and theres a lot I, and hopefully others, can take away from this. I wonder how the counter argument would go, from those who say wood moves so this level of accuracy is pointless?

custard - The longer 600mm ruler for the Starrett. Over time would it not place more stress on the clamping mechanism and eventually lesson accuracy? We're talking extreme precision here, so I just wondered what your thoughts were.
 
Thanks to Yorkshire Martin and to Custard for their illuminating posts.

There is a cheap and simple way to ensure that any square is accurate, by making a square-setting jig. It has absolute accuracy, since it relies on the fact that four right angles make 360 degrees. It comes from old mechanical engineering practice, and I described a version for woodwork squares here:

high-accuracy-square-setting-jig-t93871.html

I estimate that one can set a right angle to 0.003 degrees with this jig (about 10 arc seconds).

Before doing a project involving any precise work I check my squares against it. My squares are adjustable, but any square, even a car bootie, can be adjusted to this accuracy. On the Starrett type one uses fine emery on one of the two projections that define the angle of the ruler. On a solid type, one hand grinds the edge of the blade against a flat surface (e.g. glass). Much less trouble than flattening the sole of a plane, which people seem happy to spend hours on. Checking mitres can be done directly in the jig if they fit inside it, and you can make it any size to suit your production.

I used to run a metrology lab, so I am probably over-fussy. But if you cannot rely on your basic measuring/setting instruments you cannot work accurately.

Keith
 
YorkshireMartin":unmcs3ie said:
I've looked at guillotines and hand mitre saws as were suggested by Andy T (http://wickes.scene7.com/is/image/travi ... ng-product - similar to this?), if I understood him correctly, but when buying second hand (or from Wickes), again, you're sort of taking a stab in the dark that it's accurate.

Oops, no, that's not what I was talking about, though you could use it as I'll describe in a moment.

To clarify - my suggested fix for your mitre that looks like this:

file.php


is to take one of these

mitre6.jpg


and with your mitred ends clamped together but not glued, rest it on the mitre line, where it will naturally follow the gap, and saw down. Where the saw fits the gap, no wood will be removed, but where the ends do butt together a tiny amount of wood will be removed, leaving parallel, straight ends. These may then be clamped and glued together.

That's the basic trick. Here's a little bit more, showing the use of a mitre clamp and a mitre jack. It's how I have done picture frames, without investing a lot in professional level specialist kit. (I'm not knocking the pro kit - if you have the space and the cash it will produce superior results with less effort - this is just a simple alternative approach.)

First, cut the mitres reasonably well. You could use any method - powered mitre saw, hand mitre saw like the one you linked to, backsaw in a mitre box, freehand - whatever you prefer. Here, I'm using this Marples mitre cutter.

mitre1.jpg


Cut both ends and clamp them together. [In real life the ends I cut butted together really tidily at this point. For the purposes of the demonstration, I messed up one of them on the bandsaw so I could show the next steps.]

mitre2.jpg


With the ends clamped together, run the saw down the join. Here I'm using this cutter/clamp but freehand really does work as well.

mitre3.jpg


Here's the saw cut partly made, showing the parallel kerf

mitre4.jpg


Push the two ends together - they meet well, ready for gluing and assembly.

mitre5.jpg


The cut is a little ragged but for many applications it's fine - the whiskers would easily clean off with a smoothing plane or sandpaper.

If you're not using flat components, or if it's a moulding or just for maximum precision, you may want to plane the ends. This also provides an easy way to make sure that opposite sides are the same length.

The weapon of choice is a mitre jack. [It would be perfectly practical to go straight from the approximately mitred ends to planing them on the mitre jack, without the intervening step of cutting the kerf between the ends - I just wanted to show what I was talking about earlier.]

mitre8.jpg


You clamp your pieces between the fixed and the sliding jaws, with just a little protruding, then plane down to the face, which is made at 45 degrees.
Here I am using a block plane, so I can hold the camera in the other hand. If you have one, this is the time to bring out your old, valuable mitre plane, but frankly any sharp plane that's not too big will do.

mitre9.jpg


Because you plane parts in pairs, it's easy to snug the ends together and get them exactly matching in length.

With the ends cleaned up, they meet together like this, ready for glueing and assembly.

mitre7.jpg


I hope this is useful as further evidence that woodworking there as many ways to cut a mitre as there are to skin a cat.
 
YorkshireMartin":1xbd82w2 said:
custard - The longer 600mm ruler for the Starrett. Over time would it not place more stress on the clamping mechanism and eventually lesson accuracy? We're talking extreme precision here, so I just wondered what your thoughts were.

I've had one of my 300mm Starrett combi's for over 30 years, I've had the 600mm blade for over ten years. They're used regularly, almost daily, but whenever I'm at an engineering facility and can check them against a certified reference, they just keep coming up smelling of roses.
 
custard":22e96sw1 said:
YorkshireMartin":22e96sw1 said:
custard - The longer 600mm ruler for the Starrett. Over time would it not place more stress on the clamping mechanism and eventually lesson accuracy? We're talking extreme precision here, so I just wondered what your thoughts were.

I've had one of my 300mm Starrett combi's for over 30 years, I've had the 600mm blade for over ten years. They're used regularly, almost daily, but whenever I'm at an engineering facility and can check them against a certified reference, they just keep coming up smelling of roses.


Curious how they stay square? when I took apart my combination square to see how it worked, there were two very small points of contact, which the rule slides along as you adjust it. I assume this is the same for all squares. Surely, all that adjusting will wear those points of contact over time. In a perfect world, they would wear evenly, but I suspect that is rarely the case. So if one point is ever so slightly worn down more, it's going to be out of square?

And then there is of course wear on the ruler itself which will also cause the same.

Are both aspects just made of a very very hard wearing metal?
 
transatlantic":1evhmdr2 said:
Curious how they stay square? when I took apart my combination square to see how it worked, there were two very small points of contact, which the rule slides along as you adjust it. I assume this is the same for all squares. Surely, all that adjusting will wear those points of contact over time. In a perfect world, they would wear evenly, but I suspect that is rarely the case. So if one point is ever so slightly worn down more, it's going to be out of square?

And then there is of course wear on the ruler itself which will also cause the same.

Are both aspects just made of a very very hard wearing metal?

No idea I'm afraid, I'm neither an engineer nor a metallurgist, so I'm just not qualified to comment. All I can say is I've been using Starrett combi squares for many years and as far as I can tell they're as accurate today as when they were first bought.

Starrett-.jpg
 

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