Mortise and Tenon

[jamesbb]

I've just joined this forum…so by way of introduction I thought some pics of a splendid week with David Charlesworth on his brand new mortise and tenon course might amuse. When I started the week I had never cut a M&T by hand alone so I was pleased with these results (and learned so much of the process sitting at the feet of a true master!).

Hope you enjoy…

James

 

[MusicMan]

Looks like you got the hang of it! Welcome!

 

[custard]

Blimey, that's impressive!

Just goes to show the real value of face to face training. All the YouTube videos ever made wouldn't get the average beginner producing joinery as accomplished as that.

 

[Ttrees]

Welcome to the forum
Impressive work !!!
Looks like you had fun
8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
Tom

 

[John15]

Welcome James. Excellent joints.

John

 

[dzj]

I echo the sentiments voiced above.
Well done indeed.
Now that you have mastered the joinery of one corner, it is time to incorporate it
in a frame of four such elements. And this opens a new can of worms.

It always amuses me seeing the much acclaimed internet woodworkers making
one dovetailed corner of a drawer in lightning speed.
It would be more amusing to see how fast they can complete and fit a whole drawer
to the high standards they espouse.

 

[jamesbb]

Thanks for your welcome and kind words everyone. I did like the comment of 'dzj':

It always amuses me seeing the much acclaimed internet woodworkers making
one dovetailed corner of a drawer in lightning speed.
It would be more amusing to see how fast they can complete and fit a whole drawer
to the high standards they espouse.

One can end up with lots of single corners on courses (I have a box full…even though I am not a 'much acclaimed internet woodworker' and I'm not even sure what one is!) BUT David Charlesworth does a fantastic drawer-making and fitting week too (which I did a few years back) and then you end up with a WHOLE drawer (all four corners…though not the carcase to which it is fitted as not surprisingly he keeps that for the next students)!

James

 

[custard]

I wonder why there's so much reluctance by amateur woodworkers to invest in proper training?

When you see examples like this it's clear that face to face training drives you up the learning curve in leaps and bounds. But if you were to offer most hobbyists the choice between a week of training and some piece of Chinese tat machinery, then 99 times out of 100 they'd choose rubbish kit over solid skills.

Maybe people think the internet will take care of all their training needs? For a tiny disciplined and determined minority that's possibly correct, but for the majority the internet is more of a trap, with so many conflicting opinions and diversionary rabbit holes that most people just get spun around in circles rather than make any real woodworking progress.

 

[jamesbb]

I couldn't agree more 'custard'. The weeks (I've done three) with David Charlesworth completely transformed my work and turned woodwork into the most enjoyable pastime. However, in the early days I learned a great deal from videos. All my initial skills at being able to sharpen, tune up a bench plane and then plane a piece of wood square and to size came from the first DC videos. They were paced just right for me and included the level of detail that I needed to understand what I was supposed to be doing. However, that could only take me so far…what one learns in five days (the informal discussion of every woodworking topic under the sun is worth its weight in gold) far outweighs a DVD (or indeed probably five DVDs).

 

[Eric The Viking]

When you see examples like this it's clear that face to face training drives you up the learning curve in leaps and bounds. But if you were to offer most hobbyists the choice between a week of training and some piece of Chinese tat machinery, then 99 times out of 100 they'd choose rubbish kit over solid skills.

It's a Domestic Controller issue: there's something obvious for the money spent, which might, just, be useful. A course is time not doing stuff, with no discernable value.

You're quite right, obviously, about the actual value, but it's one of those things where she'll never be persuaded (like the merits of watching F1 instead of yet another repeat of "Midsomer Madmen").

Some of us have learned the hard way. Not to argue, I mean.

 

[dzj]

Thanks for your welcome and kind words everyone. I did like the comment of 'dzj':

It always amuses me seeing the much acclaimed internet woodworkers making
one dovetailed corner of a drawer in lightning speed.
It would be more amusing to see how fast they can complete and fit a whole drawer
to the high standards they espouse.

One can end up with lots of single corners on courses (I have a box full…even though I am not a 'much acclaimed internet woodworker' and I'm not even sure what one is!) BUT David Charlesworth does a fantastic drawer-making and fitting week too (which I did a few years back) and then you end up with a WHOLE drawer (all four corners…though not the carcase to which it is fitted as not surprisingly he keeps that for the next students)!

James

I was going slightly off tangent there.
Wasn't referring to you or Mr. Charlesworth (who is known for a meticulous pedagogical approach).

 

[Trafalgar]

Just superb. A real testament to student and teacher. Wow.

 

[thetyreman]

that is some great work, very neat and precise, you should be proud of that, face to face training definitely still has its place for sure.

 

[MikeG.]

<best crocodile dundee voice....> Nah, that's not a mortise and tenon. THIS is a mortise and tenon:

Seriously, congratulations, and I hope you stick to it. I am a big believer in proper jointing, and think we've lost something with the magic-joint-making-machines which seem ubiquitous these days.

 

[bugbear]

that is some great work, very neat and precise, you should be proud of that, face to face training definitely still has its place for sure.

So - if one-to-one training with an acknowledged teacher is "10", and pure text is "1" how do

class (6+ pupils) with teacher
text + diagrams
text + photos
text + supporting video
video

score?

BugBear

 

[custard]

that is some great work, very neat and precise, you should be proud of that, face to face training definitely still has its place for sure.

So - if one-to-one training with an acknowledged teacher is "10", and pure text is "1" how do

class (6+ pupils) with teacher
text + diagrams
text + photos
text + supporting video
video

score?

BugBear

I don't think it can be analysed quite so tidily. The benefits of face to face training might include the following,

-Structure. You're given appropriate projects in a sensible sequence of ascending complexity. You don't start your woodworking career making a Carlton House Desk from Macassar Ebony.
-Avoidance of rabbit holes. The course has an agenda that keeps you on track, there's no wandering off to explore the "ultimate" shooting board or home brew finishes.
-Decisiveness. Yes there are many ways of sharpening, but in this workshop this is the one we'll be using.
-Maintaining standards. It's not acceptable to bodge something, kidding yourself that it can be corrected later. Face to face training and peer scrutiny keeps you honest.
-Discipline and resolution. Projects get finished, the training dynamic means you don't wander off and start tinkering with something else.
-Expert feedback. You don't have to judge your own performance, you're given objective appraisal.
-Focus. You don't have to solve every problem at once, you'll be given the appropriate materials so you're spared learning about timber buying, you'll be given a decent bench in a warm dry space, the machinery and tools are properly fettled, etc etc. Now all you have to do is focus on chopping a mortice.
-Experienced teacher. Unlike internet forums you can be reasonably confident the instructor actually knows what he or she is talking about.

The list goes on and on.

There are rare individuals who can arrange most of this for themselves, and can acquire real skills from books and YouTube, but the sad fact is that they're very much the exception. When it comes to "teach yourself woodworking" the majority will fail or come no where near their full potential. However, put that same group on a decent face to face training programme and almost all of them succeed. I've seen that played out enough times that I'm convinced it's just a fact of woodworking life.

 

[bugbear]

I don't think it can be analysed quite so tidily. The benefits of face to face training might include the following,
...
The list goes on and on.

So I think you want to score one-to-one at 20 or more, and everything else at 1? That's fine

BugBear

 

[Tasky]

I wonder why there's so much reluctance by amateur woodworkers to invest in proper training?

How much does it cost?
How far do I have to travel?
How much does 5 days food and hotel cost?

That's why.
It's expensive enough to get started in this 'hobby' and that's before you've even got any wood to work on.

 

[bugbear]

I wonder why there's so much reluctance by amateur woodworkers to invest in proper training?

How much does it cost?
How far do I have to travel?
How much does 5 days food and hotel cost?

That's why.
It's expensive enough to get started in this 'hobby' and that's before you've even got any wood to work on.

If one's purpose is to become better at woodwork, proper training is an excellent route.

But:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pastime

See also "messing around in sheds"

BugBear

 

[custard]

It's expensive enough to get started in this 'hobby' and that's before you've even got any wood to work on.

I agree. I used to assume woodworking was a fairly affordable hobby, where a few hundred quid would get you up and running. I couldn't have been more wrong. For most people it's more likely to be thousands of pounds rather than hundreds.

how-much-does-woodworking-cost-t106958.html

And, as you say, that's before you've bought any wood, unfortunately for many people sourcing good quality hardwood appears to be an insurmountable obstacle.

If someone asked me about taking up furniture making as a hobby I'd now say think very carefully before jumping in. Yes it's enormously satisfying if you get it right, but it's likely to cost far more than you ever imagined plus there's every chance you'll really struggle to buy quality timber.