As a retired professional engineer I love the ability to now work with wood and am grateful for the many posts in this forum that have helped me develop my skills. I do however wonder how we get young people interested in becoming engineers. Once I descibe myself as a Chartered engineer I am often labelled as an academic with no pracrtical skills which is of course far from reality as it is engineers who keep our manufacturing industry running. It is very sad that we lost the route of people being able to do apprenticerships and go through HNC & HND to gain Charter status with a high level of practical skills. Let us encourage our children, especially girls, into the wonderful world of engineering where you learn the theory and how to apply it. Do you have the same problem, or are your children put off because of bad labelling?
How do we get kids to be engineers
- Thread starter bracspin
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In the days of the old Habsburg Empire when someone was presented to the monarch, they would say "this is so and so the general or physician
or barrister...". When someone had no standing in society, they would say he was an engineer.
The more things change...
or barrister...". When someone had no standing in society, they would say he was an engineer.
The more things change...
Mark A
Established Member
I took a BTEC National Diploma in engineering when I was 17/18 at a local college. I left with good results, but sadly the experience sapped all enthusiasm to pursue the subject further.
The course was a shambles and most of the lecturers frankly didn't give a cowpat (one would often not turn up for lecturers because he preferred to go surfing) so I remember feeling disillusioned within the first few weeks.
I didn't have a particularly good time there, but that's not to say others felt the same way - I know several went on to university and apprenticeships after college.
I think the education system can do an awful lot more to incorporate engineering into the school curriculum, which would go a long way to introduce the subject to kids years before those dreaded careers advice sessions!
Mark
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The course was a shambles and most of the lecturers frankly didn't give a cowpat (one would often not turn up for lecturers because he preferred to go surfing) so I remember feeling disillusioned within the first few weeks.
I didn't have a particularly good time there, but that's not to say others felt the same way - I know several went on to university and apprenticeships after college.
I think the education system can do an awful lot more to incorporate engineering into the school curriculum, which would go a long way to introduce the subject to kids years before those dreaded careers advice sessions!
Mark
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I read a letter in The Times a long while ago from a guy who owned a fairly large engineering firm. He said he much prefered to take on apprentices as he himself was a time served apprentice, the main problem he had now was that as nothing practical of any value was taught in schools any more, he was expected to turn sixteen year olds who had never picked up a hammer or a file into qualified engineers in three years - it just couldn't be done.
Just look on ebay for lathes, bandsaws, etc. - a huge amount is specified to have come from schools.
Just look on ebay for lathes, bandsaws, etc. - a huge amount is specified to have come from schools.
Mark A
Established Member
A quick point about labelling:
People like to improve their job description by adding "engineer" onto the end of it. Most of them should be called technicians or repair men/women/persons if they don't hold a qualification which grants then the privilege to use the title.
How many times have you heard washing machine engineer or Sky engineer? It belittles the rightful title, so in people's minds it holds less kudos than it should.
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People like to improve their job description by adding "engineer" onto the end of it. Most of them should be called technicians or repair men/women/persons if they don't hold a qualification which grants then the privilege to use the title.
How many times have you heard washing machine engineer or Sky engineer? It belittles the rightful title, so in people's minds it holds less kudos than it should.
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There is an ongoing discussion on the Times Online about the wage of a particular university vice chancellor - £451,000 p.a. + £20,000 p.a. expenses + a grace and favour apartment. She is a psychologist. I wonder how many engineers earn half that as v.c.s? ... or as anything at all, actually?
In the US Engineer is a protected title like doctor, lawyer etc and societally engineering is much more respected and rewarded. Calling a technician an engineer has to have resulted in confusion in children as to what an engineer does. We take a number of young adults from school for work experience into my department and many of them had a very confused idea of what we did prior to them arriving (I run an engineering department covering chemical, mechanical, electrical and control engineering in the oil industry). They expect dirty kit and overalls, not the high spec computers and 3D visualisation they encounter.
F.
Edited for clarity, good spot Mr P that one typo undid my entire argument.
F.
Edited for clarity, good spot Mr P that one typo undid my entire argument.
expect?
YorkshireMartin
Established Member
phil.p":3mry7cak said:
I asked my cousins son about what they get taught at schools these days in terms of practical skills, he's 11 so in his first year at secondary school.
Theres no metalwork at his school. They do design and technology but it's on rotation, so every three weeks a bit of woodwork, then home economics (cookery) and finally industrial design and back to the start. He isn't allowed to use any machines at all. They have a plasma cutter which apparently 4th years and above are allowed to use under close supervision. Band saws, lathes and so on were out of the question and he was shocked when I asked. He said they had been told they were very dangerous, which they are, if you stick your hand in one.
I forgot to ask about chisels. I'd meant to.
Wrapped in cotton wool with very limited exposure to hands on skills. No problem, they can simply all become IT consultants because it's not as if there aren't enough already. :roll:
Adults (and I use the term loosely) are so frightened that children and even other adults will get hurt that no one is allowed to actually do the work anymore.
20 years ago now I went on an electronics course at a technical college, in order to do my job better.
Can you believe that class of adults was not allowed to use real components due to electrocution risk? We had to use computer simulations to fault find. But most of the adults didnt know how to work the computer. I spent most of my classes trying to teach a man older than me NOT to move the mouse before he clicked the button.
I came away from that 12 week evening class knowing almost as much as i knew before I started.
Untill people wanting to learn are again allowed to use real tools in real situations, it aint gonna get any better.
And then you need decent teachers... 40 years ago I went to evening classes to learn to be a TV engineer. The "teacher" spent most of each lesson telling us about his life on the trams. After 6 weeks he was sacked (they waited for 6 weeks because less than that and they had to refund the money to the students).
One of the students took over the class and it became just a "bring something in and work on it yourself" fiasco.
So as far as I'm concerned, its the adults who need a rocket up their sit upons, not the youngsters.
20 years ago now I went on an electronics course at a technical college, in order to do my job better.
Can you believe that class of adults was not allowed to use real components due to electrocution risk? We had to use computer simulations to fault find. But most of the adults didnt know how to work the computer. I spent most of my classes trying to teach a man older than me NOT to move the mouse before he clicked the button.
I came away from that 12 week evening class knowing almost as much as i knew before I started.
Untill people wanting to learn are again allowed to use real tools in real situations, it aint gonna get any better.
And then you need decent teachers... 40 years ago I went to evening classes to learn to be a TV engineer. The "teacher" spent most of each lesson telling us about his life on the trams. After 6 weeks he was sacked (they waited for 6 weeks because less than that and they had to refund the money to the students).
One of the students took over the class and it became just a "bring something in and work on it yourself" fiasco.
So as far as I'm concerned, its the adults who need a rocket up their sit upons, not the youngsters.
novocaine
Established Member
you could start by asking the children / girls what would interest them. 
then you could stop assuming that the numbers are dwindling, it's surprising how many young engineers there are out there, but as with the man who does all the work for the evil doctor or mad scientist, you don't really see the engineers (not the good ones anyway). no we don't have as many as we once had, but then, did we once have to many?
What are we calling engineering anyway? I'm a mechanical engineer (I have a certificate and everything), my boss is a chemical engineer, I drink with an electrical engineer and we all laugh at the aerospace engineer. which one of us is an "engineer".
then you could stop assuming that the numbers are dwindling, it's surprising how many young engineers there are out there, but as with the man who does all the work for the evil doctor or mad scientist, you don't really see the engineers (not the good ones anyway). no we don't have as many as we once had, but then, did we once have to many?
What are we calling engineering anyway? I'm a mechanical engineer (I have a certificate and everything), my boss is a chemical engineer, I drink with an electrical engineer and we all laugh at the aerospace engineer. which one of us is an "engineer".
finneyb
Established Member
There was a move a few years back to bring in the title Eur Eng - European Engineer as a protected title for Chartered Engineers, didn't really take off; they use it in Europe and it does seem to help with status.
There is always an alleged shortage of the right people be that engineers, doctors, nurses etc negatives sell newspapers!
For a few years I have been a judge on the North West 'Big Bang' competition - no longer exists due to a change in the contract - there was no shortage of schools putting teams up to compete on STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering & Maths) projects. However, you could see the geographical areas that were not represented - my Local Authority got their ear bent for lack of interest every year but I cannot say that it has improved. Of course, it all depends on the ability and enthusiasm of the teachers. I've offered my time to help local teachers but got a stonewall !
My understanding is that civil engineering design can be/are passed around the world with the internet to where the labour is cheapest while still working to EU/UK Codes of Practice for the UK jobs. So perhaps we need more managerial skills than practical these days.
Brian
There is always an alleged shortage of the right people be that engineers, doctors, nurses etc negatives sell newspapers!
For a few years I have been a judge on the North West 'Big Bang' competition - no longer exists due to a change in the contract - there was no shortage of schools putting teams up to compete on STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering & Maths) projects. However, you could see the geographical areas that were not represented - my Local Authority got their ear bent for lack of interest every year but I cannot say that it has improved. Of course, it all depends on the ability and enthusiasm of the teachers. I've offered my time to help local teachers but got a stonewall !
My understanding is that civil engineering design can be/are passed around the world with the internet to where the labour is cheapest while still working to EU/UK Codes of Practice for the UK jobs. So perhaps we need more managerial skills than practical these days.
Brian
tomatwark
Established Member
This does not just apply to engineers.
It is the same for all industry sectors, that actually make or install things.
It is the same with wood working as well, I would much rather employ someone with no qualification but with good woodworking skills, than someone who has been on full time course and has no idea how to work at a rate that makes money and solve problems when they arise.
I am now asking anyone I interview to carry out a skills test.
As for training that is needed for health and safety that is easily solved either in house or the odd day here and there.
We do have 3 apprentices however that are really good, the issue I might have here is keeping them when they finish, but that is a problem all firms face.
The schools need to understand that sending all your pupils to uni to make their rating look goods does not help the UK economy in the long run.
It is the same for all industry sectors, that actually make or install things.
It is the same with wood working as well, I would much rather employ someone with no qualification but with good woodworking skills, than someone who has been on full time course and has no idea how to work at a rate that makes money and solve problems when they arise.
I am now asking anyone I interview to carry out a skills test.
As for training that is needed for health and safety that is easily solved either in house or the odd day here and there.
We do have 3 apprentices however that are really good, the issue I might have here is keeping them when they finish, but that is a problem all firms face.
The schools need to understand that sending all your pupils to uni to make their rating look goods does not help the UK economy in the long run.
The better part of twenty years ago a young girl I worked with went for an interview for a patissier's job at one of London's very top hotels.
When she got back I asked how she'd got on. Fine, she said the interview went really well. I thought they'd finished but one off them pulled a bag of groceries from under the table, said the kitchens are over there, the ovens are pre heated - go cook. What do you want me to cook? she asked. See what you've got in the bag and impress us was the reply.
The kid obviousy did - she got the job. One sensible interview.
When she got back I asked how she'd got on. Fine, she said the interview went really well. I thought they'd finished but one off them pulled a bag of groceries from under the table, said the kitchens are over there, the ovens are pre heated - go cook. What do you want me to cook? she asked. See what you've got in the bag and impress us was the reply.
The kid obviousy did - she got the job. One sensible interview.
novocaine":1t1h82q6 said:
Some years ago I talked to a guy with a PhD in engineering who was down for an interview for a lecturer's job at Camborne School of Mines. He came from Nottingham, and said that most of the mining engineers he worked and trained with now worked in sweet factories - the pits had closed, and the money was better anyway.
My son's 14 and wants to be an engineer. He loves building stuff and we do some of that together. In September he starts a Saturday club being run in affiliation with a local Ford plant, where they'll strip back and rebuild a car engine, learn computing, electrical systems and something else that I can't remember. It's a free course running for 12 weeks, and looks like a great balance between 'traditional' engineering and contemporary technologies.
I don't know if he'll be better of going for an apprenticeship or a degree course if he's still interested in a few years, both are equally 'real' in my mind. It seems the way things are going, hands-on work will be less important. I even wonder if the stripping back and rebuilding a car engine will soon really be a bit of nostalgia. But to my mind, there still needs to be a balance between computer generated work and stuff we build with our hands.
Written by someone who knows very little about engineering...
I don't know if he'll be better of going for an apprenticeship or a degree course if he's still interested in a few years, both are equally 'real' in my mind. It seems the way things are going, hands-on work will be less important. I even wonder if the stripping back and rebuilding a car engine will soon really be a bit of nostalgia. But to my mind, there still needs to be a balance between computer generated work and stuff we build with our hands.
Written by someone who knows very little about engineering...
Once you're on the inside of many of these large firms they will put you through a degree if they deem you need it.
That's an interesting possibility. He's also noticed that Aston Martin have recently moved a plant to just a few miles down the road! No idea if they do apprenticeships though.phil.p":qg4fj79g said:
AJB Temple
Finely figured
It is the wrong question in the title post. The real question should be "how do we start businesses that will generate a requirement for engineers?"
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